Topic: Familar With Recording, Unfamilar With 24bit/96kHz Recorders - Recommendations?

[SMBTapes]

First off, let me introduce myself to everyone!
I'm a 24 year old college student in Greenville, NC.
I have been collecting live recordings for approximately 12 years.
I've recorded two shows myself (Billy Idol and Mudvayne, both in 2005),
But I was unaware of what I was doing and both came out virtually unintelligible.
7 years later I have decided to give recording another go, but questions remain before I can officially begin.

I'm thinking (hoping) to record Garbage on 09/14 @ Richmond and 09/16 @ Charlotte.
I'm educated in regards to recording, how to record, best position in the venue (sweetspot), etc.;
However, it is the actual recording equipment I need help with.
I want to be able to record in 24/96, so I'm currently looking a models by Tascam, Edirol, and Sony.
Also, what about mics?
I know you get what you pay for, but unfortunately I will probably not be able to spend anymore than $100 after purchasing a recorder.
So, any recommendations for somewhat decent quality mics for $100 or under?
Also, if I'm not able to purchase mics, what 24/96 recorder would you recommend if I have to use the built-in mics?
I know they won't sound nowhere near as awesome as expensive external mics,
But I figure that a mediocre recording is better than no recording at all, correct?

Thanks for any help and recommendations,
I look forward to recording and sharing in the future.

[JrF]

entry level hand held recorders that get consistently decent reviews & have ok specs for the price & have xlr inputs for external mics would be:

Tascam DR-40
Tascam DR-100mkll
Olympus LS-100
Roland R-26


avoid zoom recorders - some of the above are much better for a similar cost.

mics for less than $100 - I wouldn't bother. Anything less than $100 will be no better than the internal mics of the recorder. Low cost mics to look at include those from:

Rode
MM audio
Naiant
Line audio

[ghellquist]

And, while you are at it. Relax the 96kHz requirement.

Low-priced boxes quite often try to impress with saying they support 96kHz. If you measure and listen you will find that the analog circuits are nowhere close to supporting this. There will not be even the least difference between running 44.1 kHz compared to 96kHz. The reason for the 96k marking is that point counting buyers seem to believe that it makes a difference -- and that it is very low cost to implement in the digital circuits. But, again, as the analog parts of the boxes are not up to it, there will not be a difference in sound.

The large difference is if you go above 16 bits. Be vary there as well, several of the boxes say 24 bits, which might be technically true -- the digital side of things actually creates 24 bits. But when the analog parts that always precede the digital are not up to it, several of the bits will be only noise. Look for published figures of SNR ( Signal to Noise Ratio ). And remember that 16 bits is just about 96dB. Few mains powered several thousand pounds per channel specialized professional AD converters go above 120dB SNR and that is about 20 bits -- the last four bits even of these boxes are simply noise. *)

So, beware of inflated specs. What you really want to have is good analog circuits, and sadly they are expensive to make and often eats battery power.

*) Note to not start the wrong discussion, this is a simplification. Just to put things into perspective, my Sound Devices 722 and my Olympus LS3 (sold as LS7 in the states) both supposedly support 96kHz/24 bit. But there is an actual difference in the analog circuits, of course including using Schoeps microphones with the SD and inbuilt mics with the Olympus. Used with care the Olympus actually makes quite useful recordings which has saved me a few times. Note to myself: always bring backups to critical recordings.

// Gunnar

[adrianf74]

I think JrF has some good pointers in his post. 

Gunnar also states an important thing: 96/24 is a bit of overkill for what you'll be running.  Some people here swear by 96/24 which is fine if they want to use the extra bandwidth but 48/24 will serve you fine.  I got into this debate not that long ago and it was an interesting one that saw me continue as I was at 48/24. 

I would just try to "do things right" from the get-go.  I've run all sorts of gear over the years since I was 17 (before college) and if you can stretch a little more, you might end up with something that you will a) be happier with and b) last you longer.   Back in the day, Core Sound Binaurals were $300 and a portable DAT deck was $1000.  Now, you can get yourself set up for around $350-$400 with equipment that will satisfy you for years to come.   Myself, I've run recorders from consumer recordable walkmans, to professional ones, to portable DAT recorders, mini-disc recorders and now solid state recorders; for mics .. from the included tie mics to Core Sound to Sound Pros to Church Audio to DPA and now Countryman Associates Inc.).

For a recorder, I would really try and get a Sony PCM-M10.  The preamps are quiet on it and it's very robust and reliable.   I love mine (as do the many people here who use it).  New, you're looking at ~$229 if you shop around but then can be had between ~$180 used.  The extra money is worth it in knowing that your deck will serve you well.

For mics, there really isn't much in the "new" range for $100.  Used is another thing.  Some people will sell used Church Audio omnis for around $80-100 and the cards for around the $100 mark.  If you can spend another $20-$30 and pick up a used battery box, you'll be very happy.   Keep in mind, this gives you little flexibility in where you can stand.  If you're using omnis, you'll want to be up close and in line with the stacks. If you're running cards, you'll want to hang back a bit.   I'd aim for the CA-11's which are small and can be run with both types of caps.   I think Chris can build you a set with both types of caps and a battery box for around the $200 mark.   This would be the "perfect" solution for starting out.  I know the extra $200 might be a push but you'll happier with your results.  It will also save you from buying "cheap" now to upgrade later (costing you more out of pocket in the long run). 

if you look in the Yard Sale forum, you might find some good buys.  Since your shows aren't until September you've got some time.

[SMBTapes]

Thank you so much for the deck and mic recommendations.
As far as the Sony PCM-M10 goes, do you (adrianf) have any samples of your recordings I could hear?
Also, when running the Sony PCM-M10 with a VG/EX quality mic setup,
Do you find that you generally produce high quality recordings without tampering with the settings (plug in mic, turn on, hit record, stop after show and turn off),
Or do you generally have to monitor and/or alter recording levels during the beginning of the show in order to avoid distortion?

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Welcome to Team NC...

Terry

[adrianf74]

Thank you so much for the deck and mic recommendations.
As far as the Sony PCM-M10 goes, do you (adrianf) have any samples of your recordings I could hear?
Also, when running the Sony PCM-M10 with a VG/EX quality mic setup,
Do you find that you generally produce high quality recordings without tampering with the settings (plug in mic, turn on, hit record, stop after show and turn off),
Or do you generally have to monitor and/or alter recording levels during the beginning of the show in order to avoid distortion?

And Team NC is a great place to be -- guys like Terry have been around for some time and I'm sure can give you some pointers that are more useful as to your local venues, etc.

Again samples only get you so far when you're in a different city and/or your location in a venue, differing sound mix, etc.  I've never used the CA-11's so I can't speak to them but have used the CA-14's.  The CA-11's are smaller than the CA-14's and have changeable caps -- that was why I suggested them to you.  I don't have any shows up at the moment but there are many people using the CA-11's/-14's with a battery box (CA-Ugly Battery Box) or preamp (ST-9100) up on DIME/TTD and I think even the LMA.

I don't consider my setup to be EX, per-se, but suitable to my needs.  Mics are are beer or coffee -- everyone's got a personal preference.  The chain, essentially, goes Mics > Battery Box > Deck (Line-In).  I find that I more or less know where I need my levels to be at because I've recorded so many shows over the years and this is something you'll "learn" in time but even with the best guess I sometimes need to tweak my levels at the show and then 'fix in it in post'.  I aim to have my levels peak around -12dB/-10dB which gives me headroom for any loud hollering or clapping so that I don't overload the levels.  If you follow this, it should almost be a "set it and forget it" once the first couple of songs are done (and the sound tech has finished tweaking stuff).   Seeing that you don't have to worry about tape flips/disc changes/etc., you can hit record 10 minutes earlier than the start and then stop after you've walked out.   The M10 has a 5-second buffer if you're in record standby so you can always go that route but what's the sense in fumbling when you don't need to?  Besides, being as casual and non-descript is the best policy.   If you set the M10 at 4.5 with a battery box and Church mics, I doubt you'd "overload" the recorder and that would probably be a good starting point.

Some good "newbie" advice for you is to get your gear a couple of weeks before the shows you want to "REALLY" capture and go see some smaller bands in a local club.  This will give you an idea of how your gear works and what you'll need to be ready for on the day of the show that "matters." 

Hopefully this helps you... the M10 is a sweet piece of equipment.  Some people on this forum even own two of them because it's THAT good. 

Feel free to ask any more questions you might have -- I'm sure myself and others will chime in.  Cheers.

[newplanet7]

Great posts Adrian.

SMBtapes, will you be stealth taping or open taping? Also what is your total budget?

[adrianf74]

Great posts Adrian.

SMBtapes, will you be stealth taping or open taping? Also what is your total budget?

Thanks.  I know that the group SMBtapes is planning to roll on is  .   I don't think Billy cared too much back in '05 (or '02 for that matter).   

[bryonsos]

Welcome to Team NC...

Terry

Definitely join Team NC on the team boards. We're mostly harmless, and you might even find somebody willing to loan you some gear while you search for your own.

[SMBTapes]

Great posts Adrian.

SMBtapes, will you be stealth taping or open taping? Also what is your total budget?

Stealth for sure. Not sure if Garbage is anti-recording, but I always want to play it safe, and since I can only afford one rig right now, I'd say stealth since a good majority of bands don't allow taping. One show will be Garbage as headliners, and the next show will be a festival, with the following acts:
The Offspring
Garbage
Flogging Molly
Coheed & Cambria
Switchfoot
Our Lady Peace
Anberlin
Eve 6
Paper Tongues
Evans Blue

As far as budget, if I got the Sony PCM-M10 for example, say, for $200 (more on Amazon, less on eBay), I would probably be able to spend another $150-200 on mics.

[earmonger]

The PCM-M10 is just wonderful. You won't be sorry.  Get the black one, which is matte; the red (actually burgundy) shows fingerprints. The only advantage to the red may be that it looks excessively harmless, like a cheap point-and-shoot camera. But so does the black one. The black will be my replacement unit when needed.

If you Google archive.org and CA-11 you can find recordings made with those mics. Or CA-14, etc.

My starter mics were Sound Professionals BMC-2, which are around $60 (a little more with clips, which you do need) and the size of a pencil eraser, lovely for stealth. Better than the PCM-M10 built-ins; more bass. Standard (low)  sensitivity, and use them with a battery box through Line-in.  www.soundprofessionals.com  If you intend to use them frequently, get the 3-year warranty and replace them free when they give out sometime in year 3. Black mics clipped to black shirt collar....very realistic sound because they are separated by the same width as your ears. 

Those are good recordings that I'm still happy with, but the CA-14 omnis I have now are better.  (And bigger--thumbtip-sized.) Listen to some BMC-2 recordings on archive.org as well. 

Note that Chris Church can take six weeks to build and ship your mics--he's a one-man show--so September isn't that far away if you choose to get those worthy Church Audio mics.  Sound Professionals will probably get their mics to you within two weeks. But look in the Yard Sale and on Ebay too.

[SMBTapes]

The PCM-M10 is just wonderful. You won't be sorry.  Get the black one, which is matte; the red (actually burgundy) shows fingerprints. The only advantage to the red may be that it looks excessively harmless, like a cheap point-and-shoot camera. But so does the black one. The black will be my replacement unit when needed.

If you Google archive.org and CA-11 you can find recordings made with those mics. Or CA-14, etc.

My starter mics were Sound Professionals BMC-2, which are around $60 (a little more with clips, which you do need) and the size of a pencil eraser, lovely for stealth. Better than the PCM-M10 built-ins; more bass. Standard (low)  sensitivity, and use them with a battery box through Line-in.  www.soundprofessionals.com  If you intend to use them frequently, get the 3-year warranty and replace them free when they give out sometime in year 3. Black mics clipped to black shirt collar....very realistic sound because they are separated by the same width as your ears. 

Those are good recordings that I'm still happy with, but the CA-14 omnis I have now are better.  (And bigger--thumbtip-sized.) Listen to some BMC-2 recordings on archive.org as well. 

Note that Chris Church can take six weeks to build and ship your mics--he's a one-man show--so September isn't that far away if you choose to get those worthy Church Audio mics.  Sound Professionals will probably get their mics to you within two weeks. But look in the Yard Sale and on Ebay too.

Thank you so much for the input, all of this information is very helpful. I will more than likely try the Sound Professionals BMC-2 mics (unless I can find someone to borrow mics from, have been discussing with a member in exchange for letting them use the Sony-PCM-M10), since they are relative cheap, yet yield at least decent results. I would love for my captures to be EX+, but for my first few, I would be more than happy to have a listenable record of the shows, as opposed to nothing at all.

[adrianf74]

Thank you so much for the input, all of this information is very helpful. I will more than likely try the Sound Professionals BMC-2 mics (unless I can find someone to borrow mics from, have been discussing with a member in exchange for letting them use the Sony-PCM-M10), since they are relative cheap, yet yield at least decent results. I would love for my captures to be EX+, but for my first few, I would be more than happy to have a listenable record of the shows, as opposed to nothing at all.

Keep your eyes on the yard.  CA-14's, CA-11's and AT-853's show up quite often.   You can likely find something there for around the US$100 -- the last CA-14 omnis I saw went for $80 (!!!) so you'd be best to keep your eyes open (or try and borrow something from somebody locally while you wait for a better deal).

I'm not knocking the BMC-2's but for that _little bit extra_ you get a much better mic. 

[SMBTapes]

Thank you so much for the input, all of this information is very helpful. I will more than likely try the Sound Professionals BMC-2 mics (unless I can find someone to borrow mics from, have been discussing with a member in exchange for letting them use the Sony-PCM-M10), since they are relative cheap, yet yield at least decent results. I would love for my captures to be EX+, but for my first few, I would be more than happy to have a listenable record of the shows, as opposed to nothing at all.

Keep your eyes on the yard.  CA-14's, CA-11's and AT-853's show up quite often.   You can likely find something there for around the US$100 -- the last CA-14 omnis I saw went for $80 (!!!) so you'd be best to keep your eyes open (or try and borrow something from somebody locally while you wait for a better deal).

I'm not knocking the BMC-2's but for that _little bit extra_ you get a much better mic. 

Will do, I'm currently watching a Sony PCM-M10 online for $50!