Topic: Newbie requesting suggestions on settings for first time with new mics, etc.

[frankenbeans]

Hey all,
I'm not a total noob, but almost. Been taping on and off for about 10 yrs with one rig (SP Omnis into an SP-SPSB-1 battery module - the model with 7 levels of bass roll-off, and initially with a couple of Sharp MD recorders.) and gotten moderately acceptable to terrible results.  Mostly taping in small to medium clubs, and fairly loud bands and I've gotten mostly muddy recordings, both with mics taped up on a wall, mics self-worn, and mics stuck up on a generous fellow taper's stand.  Well, the Omnis died and I replaced them with the SP-CMC-2 cardioids (stereo pair of Audio-technica AT831).  Also, about a year ago I picked up a Tascam DR-2D to replace the Minidisc both for running time and the ability to record at two levels simultaneously. 

So my rig with which I will be taping this Saturday night is SP-CMC-2 > SP-SPSB-1 > DR-2D.

I will most likely have to tape the mics to a pole or something unless I see mic stands and an obvious taper-friendly environment (This is at Lee's Palace in Toronto; I've never been there before and don't know what to expect but have found some other shows taped there indicating mics were taped up.)

I was wondering what settings you would recommend I start with (obviously aside from levels): how much bass to roll off on the battery module (this is my first time using cardioids), whether or not to also use the low cut filter in the DR-2D, mic aiming configuration, etc.  Hell, if there's a generally better place to record from in a club venue with cardioids, I'd be thankful for any help.  This will be surf-rock type music so it will probably be somewhat loud, but not ear-splitting.

I know the SP people recommend plugging the battery module into the line-in jack to bypass the 'relatively noisy mic preamp in most recorders' so I was planning on doing that, and also using the dual-level recording feature. 

Sorry for the very rudimentary questions, I know I can learn all this with just getting out and taping, but the timing of my Omnis dying has prevented any chance of that, as I just received the mics yesterday.

Thank you for any and all help.

Todd

[rhinowing]

I can't offer a huge amount of help here, but I do run a similar rig (SP-BMC-2 > SP-SPSB-10 > DR-2D) and can tell you that going into the line input on the DR-2D is going to give you low levels (compared to my old R-09, the line in on the Tascam is easily 20db lower) - so you may to add some gain, or ultimately just pick up an external preamp. You probably can still get an acceptable recording if you run in 24-bit

[fmaderjr]

No bass roll off or low cut-do that in post. Even with omnis I would recommend that, but never roll off with cards. Omnis have quite a bit lower bass extension than cards.

I made many great recordings with Sharp MD recorders and no bad ones that were the fault of the recorder. I'm guessing that since you record mostly loud stuff, your muddy recordings were the result of the SP omnis not being able to handle the sound pressure levels. Although AT-831's are pretty good mics, my understanding is that they need the 4.7 k resistor mod to handle high sound pressure levels. Hopefully someone who is familiar with the mics will chime in here. If I am correct and you don't get the mod done, your recordings may not be much more satisfactory than they were with your old system when you are recording very loud stuff. There are members here, I think, that could do the mod for you at a reasonable price if it turns out to be necessary.

[paulbaptiste]

No need for roll off, you can adjust that in post if need be.  You might very well need the 4.7k mod for louder sources, keep in mind that the mod lowers your sensitivity by 12 db i believe, so if your getting low levels, or running line in, you'll most likely need a preamp.   Another great improvement is that you  can also run the SP-CMC 4 (853) caps on the 831's bodies.  Which is a nice, cheap upgrade to your gear, as the 853 caps sound wonderful.   

[frankenbeans]

Thanks all for the input so far.  I see there are two opening bands so that will allow me to at least see roughly what levels I need for the band I want to tape.

The reason I was thinking the muddiness of my previous recordings was because of Omnis in the specific kind of venue with specific sound characteristics a as follows:

When I very first got the SP Omnis, I did not understand that I really did in fact need the battery module (as an absolute n00b, I was trying to do it on the cheap) and so the first couple of shows were totally brick walled.  That's not what I meant by 'muddy'. After getting the battery module, I was able to get non- brick walled tapes, but in club venues it was still extremely bass-heavy with poor definition of vocals and drums etc, and not very listenable. Rolling it off on the module helped a lot, but not to the point where I was happy with the results.  I ended up using cool edit to try to fix it in post. The following tapes were better yet, but my thinking was if I could get a cleaner tape at the outset, it would need less post-processing, which I assume is preferable.  For that reason and reading about cards not picking up so much room reverb and boominess, I wanted to get some cards but financially couldn't justify it until the Omnis died and I had no option.  I will also note that the few outdoor shows where I have been able to use the Omnis up close to the PA, things have sounded MUCH better, not having that sludgy sound. For that reason and the meters looking good on the recorder, I wasn't thinking that the unsatisfactory results had as much to do with SPL capabilities of the mics but rather room dynamics and the Omnis picking everything up including all that reverb/echo/mess.

I didn't mean to imply the MD recorder was to blame for the sound, just that the worry about cutting off a song while flipping discs and waiting for it to record the TOC was a reason to switch to a flash recorder. 

I did call SP to order these and asked for Chris but he was not in, so I spoke with Joe(?) and detailed my needs and my previous challenges and this is what he recommended. He did briefly discuss a mod of the mics to allow them to handle *super* loud stuff (by his description, loudness that would cause permanent hearing damage) but after discussing my needs, he felt it oldnt likely be necessary and I think that was something about a pad of sorts to actually muffle the mic capsule. That's not the 4.7k mod is it?  The other thing that was discussed is actually going with the Audio-technica battery modules but that would require two of them and shipping the mic set back to SP to have them separated again. 

I am going to go check if the capsules can unscrew.   Based on what I've given you, the consensus is still to roll off nothing on either module or recorder, right?  Also based on the above, is there any more input as to whether my bass/mud issue was with SPL handling or just the wrong mics in the wrong kind of venue?   I guess I maybe don't want to face the truth that I may have taken steps to fix the problem but not actually fixed it, and there's no time now to resolve it in time for the show.  This is a show that I desperately want to have a tape of for a souvenir as the band broke up long ago, a main member died of cancer, and they've re-formed sith a fill-in for 2 shows only to promote some album reissues.  I thought I'd never get to see them live and now this is my one shot at being able to re-live it again and again.

Thanks again for the kind help.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

My .02 cents.  I have a set of the SP-CMC-2/AT831's that I have used to record a number of shows, most of them being pretty loud.  I don't have the 4.7k mod on mine and they've worked just fine (no overloading/brickwalling/distortion) as long as I've used a 9v battery box and not relied on the deck's plug-in power.  YMMV, but unless you're stack taping really loud bands from just a few yards away (and I mean REALLY loud) you likely won't need the 4.7k mod.

As far as using bass rolloff, I personally wouldn't use it at all.  You can always EQ your recording in post.  As the saying goes, you can take those frequencies out later but you can't put them back in.

[acidjack]

My .02 cents.  I have a set of the SP-CMC-2/AT831's that I have used to record a number of shows, most of them being pretty loud.  I don't have the 4.7k mod on mine and they've worked just fine (no overloading/brickwalling/distortion) as long as I've used a 9v battery box and not relied on the deck's plug-in power.  YMMV, but unless you're stack taping really loud bands from just a few yards away (and I mean REALLY loud) you likely won't need the 4.7k mod.

As far as using bass rolloff, I personally wouldn't use it at all.  You can always EQ your recording in post.  As the saying goes, you can take those frequencies out later but you can't put them back in.

He means REALLY LOUD.

FWIW, I think the biggest time the low sens thing comes into play is with improperly wired (i.e., wired to a single stereo miniplug instead of how they're intended to be used) AT853s, IIRC.

[frankenbeans]

Thank you all for the guidance.  I am going to tape with no rolloff and just adjust levels only.

Also, the capsules do in fact unscrew on the 831s, so I will read up about 853 capsules.

THANKS!  Wish me luck!

[acidjack]

Thank you all for the guidance.  I am going to tape with no rolloff and just adjust levels only.

Also, the capsules do in fact unscrew on the 831s, so I will read up about 853 capsules.

THANKS!  Wish me luck!

You will need an adapter to run 853 caps. I Kow the 943s did this but did to know 831s did. Check with sp.