Best shotgun configurations?

[alpine85]

Hey all - I'm taping a show at a large outdoor shed this week (which I rarely do),  so I was thinking about dusting off the shotgun caps. 

These are the AKG CK-8 capsules.  Technically, they are called "short-shotgun hypercardioid" caps in the AKG literature, so I was wondering if X/Y 90 degrees would work, with a pair of flanking split omnis.    I just picked up the guns a few months ago and haven't had a chance to use them in the field yet.  I did set them up that way (just the shotguns X/Y, no omnis) in my living room the other day to run some tests, and they sounded pretty nice monitoring through headphones. 

I found some CK-8 shows on the Archive, but most of them don't have much info on the configs, other than a few "PAS".      What patterns have you guys used?  What has worked, and what hasn't?

[Gutbucket]

Disclamer- I've never used 'em, but I'd run shotguns PAS regardless of any other mics since most interference tube mics get wonky off-axis.  X/Y is a good choice if mixing with spit omnis.

[The Other Chris]

PAS=Point At Stacks?  I'm an idiot.

[alpine85]

PAS=Point At Stacks?  I'm an idiot.

Yes. PAS = pointed at stacks

A couple other things I'm wondering about, with the CK8 capsule specifically (or maybe it applies to other short shotgun caps too, I don't know):

1)  Where is the actual diaphragm in the shotgun cap?  I'm assuming it's at the end that attaches to the mic body, where the vents go all the way around the capsule (and it basically looks just like a ck61 or ck63)... correct?

2) on the "interference tube" part, there's a narrow vent - maybe 1/4" wide - all the way from end to end.  What direction should this vent be facing? Up? Down? To the inside?  Outside?  In my test run, I think I pointed them to the outside (to the R for R channel, to the L for L channel), and it seemed to work OK.   Does it matter?

[Gutbucket]

1) capsule is at the body end of the tube.  Longer tube leverages the shotgun pattern filtering to a lower frequency
2) not supposed to matter

[John Willett]

1)  Where is the actual diaphragm in the shotgun cap?  I'm assuming it's at the end that attaches to the mic body, where the vents go all the way around the capsule (and it basically looks just like a ck61 or ck63)... correct?

The capsule is at the back end of the interference tube - but there will be some slots behind the capsule for rear-entry.

The MKH 416 actually has the capsule half way down - the slots continue for cosmetic purposes.

With the CK8 it's pretty obvious as it's an interference tube bolted on the front of a standard capsule - so the diaphragm will be at the point where the interference tube attaches to the capsule - the slots on the back end are the rear entry slots.

2) on the "interference tube" part, there's a narrow vent - maybe 1/4" wide - all the way from end to end.  What direction should this vent be facing? Up? Down? To the inside?  Outside?  In my test run, I think I pointed them to the outside (to the R for R channel, to the L for L channel), and it seemed to work OK.   Does it matter?

It doesn't matter which way the vent points.

[runonce]

PAS=Point At Stacks?  I'm an idiot.

Yes. PAS = pointed at stacks

A couple other things I'm wondering about, with the CK8 capsule specifically (or maybe it applies to other short shotgun caps too, I don't know):

1)  Where is the actual diaphragm in the shotgun cap?  I'm assuming it's at the end that attaches to the mic body, where the vents go all the way around the capsule (and it basically looks just like a ck61 or ck63)... correct?

2) on the "interference tube" part, there's a narrow vent - maybe 1/4" wide - all the way from end to end.  What direction should this vent be facing? Up? Down? To the inside?  Outside?  In my test run, I think I pointed them to the outside (to the R for R channel, to the L for L channel), and it seemed to work OK.   Does it matter?

I've always wondered about that vent also - (I refer to it as a "slit" to avoid confusion with the other vents)
The Nak guns have this also - but its more like a millimeter wide.
I try to make the slits symmetrical if nothing else.

People have always had theories about "just inside the stack" or "just outside the stack" - I prefer to point them right at the meat...PAS (I always thought that was "Point And Shoot" taking the camera reference to mic named after a gun)
I would be going for the highest on/off axis ratio...its that off axis stuff that makes guns sound swishy or paper towel tubey.

I dont think any of our traditional patterns will work with these. If you ran XY - where would they intersect, at the tip or the cap...?

I think running them in a nice "V" shape is the way - I wouldn't get too close - as you'll end up having to angle your mics too much to make the PAS angle.

Even with a small 6 inch T-bar, the tip of the mics will be almost 12 inches apart...and the caps 8 inches -I think that gives a nice fat NOS sound.

[DiggerinVA]

PAS is what I found back in the big barn days. The other note is keep them level. if possible. Or at least parallel  to the ground in sheds.

[Gutbucket]

If you ran XY - where would they intersect, at the tip or the cap...?

Cross at caps.

[runonce]

If you ran XY - where would they intersect, at the tip or the cap...?

Cross at caps.

That's what I would think also...but I just can see how a 45 degree angle is going to be good for a shotgun...

[DigiGal]

When I use a shotgun mic, I only use a single shotgun as the mid mic and use figure-8 for a side mic to record mid-side.

[rocksuitcase]

I own and have used in many different situations a pair of CK-8s.
Back in the GD days we used to point them at the insides of the stacks, closest to the high frequency drivers, not the bass stacks. My feeling about this in todays world is that most sound companies now use line arrays; which is what the GD pioneered (in a lrge stage context) back in the 80's with Meyer Sound Labs speakers and "sensing" amplifiers (alongside of SIM); therefore I think pointing at teh stacks is important in order to reduce the "papertowel tube" sound.
If you are going to cross them, do it at the caps; you will have to make sure your mic bar can handle the spread, especially if you are going to mix omnis to the outside of the CK8s.
The person who pointed out keeping them parallel to the ground, which does seem to be important. Also, keeping them lower than say, 10 feet up. If the audience will tend toward polite/quiet I prefer head level (6-6.5 feet) up, parallel to ground, pointed at stacks.

[SmokinJoe]

I've had Nak guns, Senn ME66's and now I have CK8's.  I've tried a few different variants on the "Point at Stack" theme... wider than that, right at them, a bit inside.  I've kind of ended up with "right at them" but, I'm not sure that's the right answer.   If you wanted to run them XY, you could do that with the mics crossing at the caps.  I wouldn't run them 90* XY, I would run them crossed PAS.  The included angle is whatever it happens to be based on the location.

I never much thought about the height or level issue... and I probably should have.  Quick story... A few years ago we were at this festival, and it had rain on/off, so we had umbrellas.  But Seth's Nak guns stuck way out from under the umbrella.  I told him "point them down just a few degrees, that way if any water soaks through the windscreens it will run out towards the end of the tube, not back towards the capsule."  It kinda made sense, so that's what he did, and it was perhaps the best pull of the weekend.  http://archive.org/details/um2008-08-09.nak300_guns

[cashandkerouac]

i recently acquired some CK8 caps and used them for the 1st time a couple of weeks ago.  it was at the Fillmore in SF, i was in the back of the room and WAY left of center (horrible taping location slightly left of the left stack... really really bad spot).  the guns were spaced at about 2 feet apart and i pointed them toward the inside of the stacks.  my stand was about 7 feet and i kept the CK8s level with the floor.  i was very surprised at how good this recording sounds.  for a back of room situation the CK8s performed like a champ.     

[runonce]

I've had Nak guns, Senn ME66's and now I have CK8's.  I've tried a few different variants on the "Point at Stack" theme... wider than that, right at them, a bit inside.  I've kind of ended up with "right at them" but, I'm not sure that's the right answer.   If you wanted to run them XY, you could do that with the mics crossing at the caps.  I wouldn't run them 90* XY, I would run them crossed PAS.  The included angle is whatever it happens to be based on the location.

I never much thought about the height or level issue... and I probably should have.  Quick story... A few years ago we were at this festival, and it had rain on/off, so we had umbrellas.  But Seth's Nak guns stuck way out from under the umbrella.  I told him "point them down just a few degrees, that way if any water soaks through the windscreens it will run out towards the end of the tube, not back towards the capsule."  It kinda made sense, so that's what he did, and it was perhaps the best pull of the weekend.  http://archive.org/details/um2008-08-09.nak300_guns

Similar NAKs in the rain story - Grateful Dead 1990 RFK show torrential rain and lightning - OTS - and I patched into the ONLY guy with no umbrella...I remember watching the rain dripping from the windscreens...but, fortunately the guy who patched me was hardcore and not pulling out!!! I think he mentioned he was a NAK dealer...If that was any of you...THANKS!   At the end of the show the OTS looked like an island in a sea of mud...and it was.