Topic: Recorder to meet these specifications

[guyburns]

I'm surprised it has turned out so difficult to track down a recorder that meets my requirements. I don't consider these requirements very onerous as even budget devices offer most of them. But finding all these features in one unit is a challenge.

1. Two XLR phantom-power inputs.
2. Separate level controls on the XLR inputs.
3. When recording, a second recording is also saved at a lower level in case of overload.
4. Runs off AA batteries, preferably four (reason: AAs are readily available, economic, can be used in other devices, and provide good battery life when phantom powering. When I go hiking, I want to be able to take a number of spare batteries that fit everything: torch, camera, recorder)
5. Noise floor below about -115 dBU for field recording
6. Can be used as a USB interface. Not strictly necessary, but useful.
7. Priced at less than $600
8. Portable: no larger than the PMD661.

I'm looking for a device that concentrates on recording and isn't trying to be a recording studio. Thus I'm a bit wary of the H4N, for example. I'd want to use the recorder for: home recordings (max two inputs at a time) saved to itself; for home recordings to a computer using the recorder as a USB interface; for interviews; and for nature recordings (thus the low noise floor requirement). These are some of the devices I've looked at in detail. Noise floors at http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm.


PMD 661
$600,  Noise Floor = -125,  Fails #6. Excellent low noise recorder. Listen to noise floor at http://transom.org/?p=1774

R-26
$500, NF = -124. Fails #3

DR-40
$200, NF = -107. Fails #2, 5, 6. Listen to the noise floor at http://transom.org/?p=21768

DR-100 Mk11
Fails #3, 6, and partly fails #4. I'd rather two extra AAs than the Li-ion.

H4N
Fails  #4, 5, 6


The  R-26 comes closest to satisyfing everything on the list, but lacks #3. I don't want to be in the situation where I have a great interview recording, only to find it clipped here and there. Having a second recording at a lower level would give me peace of mind.

The PMD661 would probably make me happiest, but it is pricey and I would need to buy a USB interface, adding to the cost.

The DR-40 is almost there…  but the noise!

The DR-100 would be the number one contender, but it does not offer a second lower-level recording. A pity, because its noise floor, price, and features, otherwise make for a superb recorder.


Have a missed any recorders that meet my requirements?

[page]

Right off hand, I'd expect 3 and 6 to conflict. As you've noted, usb interfacing is uncommon in a recorder (at best). In the pro-audio world, that's a feature that typically belongs with mixers, adcs, or dedicated interfaces.

Any particular reason why you wouldn't be ok with a limiter function over a dupe at a different volume? Are you using the audio for broadcast later or just for transcription?

[OOK]

If you know how to run a recorder you don't have to wory about a second copy.  running 24bit and peaking around -12 is perfect if your concerned about running to hot.  you can bring it up in post via a mastering program.  Not sure why you need the usb since cards are easy to remove and put back in.   it is easier to just plug the card into a card reader on computer.  It is generally faster too.  I think you limiting yourself by some of your requirements.   I would look at the tascam dr100mk2, PMD661 ode modd'd or a tascam HDP2 used can be had for around 450.  If it was me I would get a used oade modd'd HDP2 or oade Modd'd 661. 

Good luck in your quest.

OOK

[guyburns]

Thanks for the responses.

PAGE
"Right off hand, I'd expect 3 and 6 to conflict."
I don't understand where the conflict would be with recording an additional lower-level track, given that the R-26 can record stereo tracks and act as an interface at the same time: The audio being input to the R-26 can also be recorded on the R-26 itself while simultaneously recording into software on your computer.


"Any particular reason why you wouldn't be ok with a limiter function"
The audio I'm most concerned about would become part of HD audio-visuals, so I'd rather not have any distortions introduced via limiters and so on. But maybe I misunderstand how a limiter works. Is it like a AGC that only comes into play when the peak exceeds 0 dB?

I don't know how big a problem not having a lower-level recording might be. I can imagine being out in the scrub somewhere, three days from the car, recording sound effects or commentary, and returning home only to find clipping here and there. I'd be much happier with a second low-level track.

I suppose a workaround would be to record with two microphones set to different levels, but that introduces other problems: carrying the additional gear, for one.


OOK
 "Running 24bit and peaking around -12 is perfect if your concerned about running to hot."

That's a good possibility. But the PMD661, the most professional of the models I'm looking at, offers an the option of a second recording. Must  be a good reason they offer that and don't simply say: "We suggest recording at a lower level." I'm not familiar enough with location recording to fully understand the problems.

"Not sure why you need the usb"
When I'm finished in the wilderness, I may want to fire up my computer and do some multitrack recordings. Have I missed something? Will any of the units listed (other than the R-26) allow me to do multitrack recordings into a computer?

[page]

I don't understand where the conflict would be with recording an additional lower-level track

It's just an uncommon junction is all. I guess to put it another way; I would expect that to be rather rare. Sorry for the confusion.

The audio I'm most concerned about would become part of HD audio-visuals, so I'd rather not have any distortions introduced via limiters and so on. But maybe I misunderstand how a limiter works. Is it like a AGC that only comes into play when the peak exceeds 0 dB?

Sort of, the limiters only kick on after a certain threshold (depends on using, some it occurs around -6dbfs, others -3, some just below 0db). The goal is really proper gain staging and I suggest keeping that in mind as most manufacturers have that mentality when designing their products if those products will be used by a professional (and some of your requirements are just about pro-only), and having done some nature recording work before (or other non-PA recording which runs through a compressor), I typically set my levels rather conservatively and use a recorder with a very low EIN (which I noted was a requirement you had and I agree with). I also use a limiter, but it's mostly out of safety as I try to never actually have it engage.

I don't know how big a problem not having a lower-level recording might be. I can imagine being out in the scrub somewhere, three days from the car, recording sound effects or commentary, and returning home only to find clipping here and there. I'd be much happier with a second low-level track.

No offense, but I'm hearing inexperience with digital recording more than I am hearing a requirement (as you noted in your other reply). The first couple of sessions where I was in the wilderness I didn't have a good idea of how to set the gain, but after practicing I can do well enough now. Thunder close by is just about the only thing that catches me off guard anymore because it's so dynamic in it's volume and that still hits the limiter when I'm recording it. Everything else I'd have a decent idea of how loud it's going to be based on experience, and I still set it with room to spare.

When I'm finished in the wilderness, I may want to fire up my computer and do some multitrack recordings. Have I missed something? Will any of the units listed (other than the R-26) allow me to do multitrack recordings into a computer?

I'd want to hear more about this objective before recommending anything. Location recording and usb->PC recording are generally two different beasts, and where they converge, it's usually in a dedicated interface (like the older edirol ua-25 for example). Now, most portable location recorders will allow you to pull the memory or hook it up directly to a PC and transfer your recording, but they won't pass audio in the sense that it's a live pass. You're transfering a file with audio, not audio directly. Unless you're going to get an interface which handles more channels or there is something I'm missing, I don't see a benefit of an interface into usb when you could just charge the recorder (or put in a new set of batteries) and use that. So yeah, I'd like to hear more about this objective before I point you in a better direction.

[fmaderjr]

If you know how to run a recorder you don't have to worry about a second copy.  running 24bit and peaking around -12 is perfect if your concerned about running to hot.  you can bring it up in post via a mastering program. 

A 2nd copy is totally unnecessary if you aim for -12 peaks and record in 24 bits. Most of the best recorders are lacking this feature, I assume because the manufacturers feel the same.

[aaronji]

That's a good possibility. But the PMD661, the most professional of the models I'm looking at, offers an the option of a second recording. Must  be a good reason they offer that and don't simply say: "We suggest recording at a lower level." I'm not familiar enough with location recording to fully understand the problems.

Are you sure the PMD661 has that option (of a second recording at reduced volume)?  I may be mistaken, but I don't think it does...   

[guyburns]

Are you sure the PMD661 has that option (of a second recording at reduced volume)?  I may be mistaken, but I don't think it does...   

I wasn't sure, so I had a look at the manual again (I've read all the manuals). The mode is called D.Mono and it says:
The left channel input is recorded in both Left and Right channels. The Right channel is attenuated by 20 dB.

No offense, but I'm hearing inexperience with digital recording more than I am hearing a requirement…

How did you guess that I've not done much digital recording? A lot of analogue, dating back to reel-to-reel as a boy in the late 60s; and from the 80s onwards a fair bit with my three Tascams (144, 234, 414), but I've just sold those. Fetched a good price too. About $800 for the three. Now I'm about to move properly into digital, after several years of playing around with my Edirol UA3 feeding into GarageBand. I guess you're saying that with modern low-noise inputs and capacitive microphones, and using 24-bit, there is a lot more performance than from a Tascam 4-track cassette. Maybe I'll toss the low-level, second-channel requirement. It seems so nice to have though.

I'd want to hear more about this objective [multitrack recordings into a computer] before recommending anything.

What I'm trying to avoid is ending up with lots of equipment. I want a portable, low input-noise recorder for nature and quiet-room recordings; I want to record solo multi-track songs (up to 8-tracks, one at a time mostly); and I want to record concerts such as chamber-music recitals at a small local venue. And I want a microphone or two that I can take with me - probably the NTG1 and NT55 (with omni and cardioid capsules). I'm not after the best, but I don't want equipment that is obviously inferior in some way, such as the relatively noisy DR-40. I'm a great believer in: "the limiting factor is the user, not the equipment".

So, when I go bush, or for quiet recordings, the DR-40 is crossed off.

Next comes a factor that USA citizens don't have to worry about: cost and shipping. I'm Down Under. Prices here can be twice what they are in the USA. So I buy from the USA – but USPS won't accept lithium batteries, so I either pay more for shipping via UPS, or I choose a non-lithium recorder. Out goes the DR-100.

So I'm down to the R-26 and PMD661. Virtually no difference in noise performance. One has USB recording, but no low-level second track; the other is the opposite. Which to choose?

I'm now at home, and I'm with banjo, guitar, and percussion stuff; my partner's hovering in the background with her flute and piano, and what do I do? Fire up my big iMac, connect a USB device, and away I go. But that means I'm tied to the computer room – unless I shift the iMac. And anyway, for me, sitting near a computer is not that conducive to music making. So I buy a battery-powered Tascam DP-008 and multitrack with that. But I'm not at all interested in mixing with it, so I connect it to the iMac, transfer the eight tracks, and mix in GarageBand. The song would be just perfect if it had a ninth track. I'm sitting in front of the computer, and … wouldn't it be so easy if I had a USB device that I could connect to the computer, plug in a mic, and record that extra something. But I haven't got one, so I dig up the DP-008, find the recording (hope its not erased), if it is, spend 10 minutes trying to find the backup, and even longer transferring it back to the DP-008. Do the recording, plug it into the Mac, transfer … What a bother! Where's my USB device when I need it?

 So I buy an R-26 instead of a PMD661, and sacrifice a bit of noise performance and the low-level track, but save three hundred dollars. Hey, I've almost convinced myself.

To order:

1 x NTG1 + WS6 windshield
1x NT55
1 x R-26 + spare Eneloops
1 x DP-008

And then the thunder rolls while I'm making a wilderness recording. Why didn't I get the Marantz!

[dallman]

I guess once you get comfortable, you will see that many of your concerns may not be the most important concerns to use in making a choice of a recorder. I have the PMD 661 and Tascam DR100 mkII and really like both, but they have different strengths. I did not know you could make 2 recordings with the PMD661, but then again, I never record in mono. It seems to me that any recorder that has seperate left right controls will acheive the 2 different levels if you record in mono. Without remembering the specifics of each recorder, if you split the signal to each channel and lower the record level on one channel, you would achieve the same effect.

At the same time regarding battery level, the PMD661 eats power at a greater level than the Tascam in my useage, but I always use an external power supply for safety. That said, the rechagable option on the DR100MKII has no downside, it recharges very easily, and you can make it your secondary option. It is just there if you need it. It's not like other decks run on 2 aa batteries and then have an optional 2 aa batteries somewhere else to take over when the first set dies. I would also add that if the only reason you are not picking this deck is because it does not have an option of making a second recoding at a lower level, it would be an unfortunate reason to veto this deck. And again because it has seperate levels for left and right, you could easily adapt it to make two mono recordings at different levels.

I would say listen to the advice above, as it is all pretty good. If you do any post work on a recording, many of your concerns are moot. You can find a very safe level to record at on 24 bit, an then boost your signal in post with no loss of quality. Unlike analog recording you do not need to find the hottest not clipping point for a great recording.

The very reason you may be surprised to find there is not a single deck amongst all these excellent decks that meet your requirements may just be because a few of those requirements are based on assumptions of digital recording that may not be accurate. Not an indictment at all, because a learning curve is just that, the idea of how to make a great recording is not necessarily intuitive.

The truth is that all of these recorders will make excellent recordings, and the differences between them in terms of the actual recording woiuld be very slight to the ear. It may be more the comfort level personal preferences, price or ease of use that determines why one of these decks is often purchased over another..

Good luck!

[stevetoney]

As far as the comment about, why would a manufacturer include a dual record capability if it wasn't a valuable feature, the answer is that there are some REALLY dumb people out in consumer-land that, to use a fairly ancient example, never figured out how to operate a VCR beyond on/off/record.  These same people probably won't take the time to figure out how to optimally operate a digital recorder, so the dual record mode helps them to get fool proof recordings, even if they're so ignorant that they don't think or bother to look at their levels while recording.  (This comment would be more applicable to casual users of the Tascam DR-40 and DR2D than users of that embedded PMD-661 preset.)

The suggestions people have provided here to record at -12db in 24bit are the collective wisdom of ts.com that negates the need to operate your gear in this sorta 'idiot mode'.  From reading your posts, I think that people can tell that you're smarter than that and you really won't need the dual feature after spending even minimal amounts of time learning how to operate your recorder. 

That said, if the need is to cover the headroom needed for a really REALLY wide dynamic range recording situation, then the above response is not applicable.

EDIT:  After giving this a little more thought, I suppose the dual mode might also be handy for a journalist or someone that needs to hit 'record' and doesn't have time to adjust levels before he/she is getting critical info on the recording.  The dual mode might provide insurance that one of the recordings isn't messed up in case the levels are set too high on main channels.  Regardless, this would not seem to be your need.

[page]

The suggestions people have provided here to record at -12db in 24bit are the collective wisdom of ts.com that negates the need to operate your gear in this sorta 'idiot mode'.  From reading your posts, I think that people can tell that you're smarter than that and you really won't need the dual feature after spending even minimal amounts of time learning how to operate your recorder. 

Yeah, I got the gist he wasn't a noob at recording in general from requirement #5 and his initial reply about usage. Not many people who are fresh at the game would have listed those. Thats why I approached it accordingly.

EDIT:  After giving this a little more thought, I suppose the dual mode might also be handy for a journalist or someone that needs to hit 'record' and doesn't have time to adjust levels before he/she is getting critical info on the recording.  The dual mode might provide insurance that one of the recordings isn't messed up in case the levels are set too high on main channels.  Regardless, this would not seem to be your need.

Theres where I was headed with it. my better half did that gig for a while, so I had an idea of the environmental requirement and thats why I looked at the limiter option (which is still what I think is the best bet for extreme dynamics unless you know just how loud that loudest point will be, have a compressor on hand, and even then....)

How did you guess that I've not done much digital recording? A lot of analogue, dating back to reel-to-reel as a boy in the late 60s; and from the 80s onwards a fair bit with my three Tascams (144, 234, 414), but I've just sold those. Fetched a good price too. About $800 for the three. Now I'm about to move properly into digital, after several years of playing around with my Edirol UA3 feeding into GarageBand. I guess you're saying that with modern low-noise inputs and capacitive microphones, and using 24-bit, there is a lot more performance than from a Tascam 4-track cassette. Maybe I'll toss the low-level, second-channel requirement. It seems so nice to have though.

I had wondered. Part guess and part based on your responses. As others have pointed out, you seem knowledgable about recording in general and have done some homework, but some of the assumptions didn't fit with digital recording. Like I said, part guess.

And yeah, I'm basically saying with modern low noise gear and a good 24bit ADC, you'll get better noise performance than with a 4 track cassette. I've recorded all sorts of stuff further down than the top 3 bits (so, the top 18db), some of it I've even fed through a compressor to work on it.

I'd want to hear more about this objective [multitrack recordings into a computer] before recommending anything.

What I'm trying to avoid is ending up with lots of equipment.
<snip>

Excellent analysis, and I agree with your two final choices. My gut reaction is, if you really want to use it as a usb-interface, then get the r-26. I know folks who have 661 units, and they like them, but the question about quality comes to mind here:

1) How do the limiters sound when engaged? It may be great, it may only be marginally better than clipping.  I don't have an answer to that.
2) How do the preamps sound? It's one thing to have a low EIN, but another if they generate noise when you push the gain on them. Most professional units are decent, but it's something to consider. The 661 gets use around here, the r-26 is an unknown. For nature recording, there is a guy who tests various units. I don't have the link 4th result on google, and hot damn, he's even updated it with the R-26. So check that out.

Other than that, it's features. I still wouldn't worry about the extra track. Best of luck.