Topic: Need advice on products and set-up

[mjarema414]

HI all, I've been looking through the forum and have an idea of what I'd like to get.  First, I'm new to taping and my goal is to capture live recordings of our acoustic shows at bars and restaurants.  We've been playing at bars for the past 13 years and have recorded with the zoom H2 using the built in mics.  At this point, I would like to increase the quality of the recordings and would spend around $1000.00 for a rig.  I would also like to use the rig down the road for recording live concerts.  I get out to a few shows a year and I think I'd enjoy it.  I've been checking Ebay and was looking at the Marantz PMB661 because it has preamps.  From what I gather, they may not be the greatest.  After reading further, it looks like the Sony M10 is a good choice for a recorder.  As far as mic and preamps go, I'm not so familiar with the configurations/connections used for recording.  I do our sound for each gig...mics, monitors, mains so I have knowledge of that stuff.  I've been looking at the Naiant tinybox and also their mics.  However, I don't know what configuration I'd need as I'm not familiar with the 6 pin adapater, the different types of mic capsules involved.  There are a few drop down menus and it seems like there is a lot going on.  Basically, I need to know exactly what to order so that I don't mess up.  Tiny box configuaration, mics, and cables/adapters.  Lastly, the mics don't have to be Naiant. I don't mind buying used or better quality mics elsewhere.  If you've read my post, thanks very much.  I apreciate any help I can get. 

[bryonsos]

HI all, I've been looking through the forum and have an idea of what I'd like to get.  First, I'm new to taping and my goal is to capture live recordings of our acoustic shows at bars and restaurants.  We've been playing at bars for the past 13 years and have recorded with the zoom H2 using the built in mics.  At this point, I would like to increase the quality of the recordings and would spend around $1000.00 for a rig.  I would also like to use the rig down the road for recording live concerts.  I get out to a few shows a year and I think I'd enjoy it.  I've been checking Ebay and was looking at the Marantz PMB661 because it has preamps.  From what I gather, they may not be the greatest.  After reading further, it looks like the Sony M10 is a good choice for a recorder.  As far as mic and preamps go, I'm not so familiar with the configurations/connections used for recording.  I do our sound for each gig...mics, monitors, mains so I have knowledge of that stuff.  I've been looking at the Naiant tinybox and also their mics.  However, I don't know what configuration I'd need as I'm not familiar with the 6 pin adapater, the different types of mic capsules involved.  There are a few drop down menus and it seems like there is a lot going on.  Basically, I need to know exactly what to order so that I don't mess up.  Tiny box configuaration, mics, and cables/adapters.  Lastly, the mics don't have to be Naiant. I don't mind buying used or better quality mics elsewhere.  If you've read my post, thanks very much.  I apreciate any help I can get.

http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html + http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/594741-REG/Marantz_PMD661_PMD661_Professional_Portable_Flash.html = a nice rig for $1000. An M10 + Tinybox instead is more or less the same money and would be awesome too.

[Ultfris101]

Hard to recommend enough the Naiant tinybox and Sony m10 combo as a starting point, with some mics like the Busman's mentioned above you're in a great starting place. Include in your budget some cables, clamps and mounting bars and probably a stand unless you have that stuff already and you're in good shape to get excellent results. More or less where I started not long ago. I've added gear but more to satisfy desire to try stuff out than due to need.

The 661 gets a lot of positive press here. Seems like a solid recorder but no personal experience. usually people run a preamp in front of it it seems.

From my perspective the tinybox + m10 setup leaves you with a lot of options. You can easily use the tinybox with other recorders. It can be configured to power both Phantom 48v mics and lower volt plugin power mics such as the Church Audio CA-14's or the DPA 4061s. The Tinybox is TINY and M10 is only slightly larger. The tinybox has rechargeable battery and the M10 can run for incredibly long time on two AA batteries (30+ hours is possible).

You can get an adapter which plugs into the 6pin minixlr and breaks out into two standard XLR right and left connectors. From there it's standard XLR mic cables if you want to any mics that use that. There are many options for adapters to connect to the tinybox in a similar fashion. Figure out what mics you want to use and then send Jon at Naiant an email and discuss the best config. Or discuss here on the board as many people will weigh in.

[bombdiggity]

THIS >

Figure out what mics you want to use and then send Jon at Naiant an email and discuss the best config.

I found the menus a little confusing so just explained what I had and anything I might possibly want to do with any of it. 

He built a Tinybox that can power/connect any combination with two cables he made (an XLR pair connector for phantom powered and a minijack connector for plug-in powered).  So it is cable selected to run phantom XLR, plug in powered mini-mics or even battery powered XLR's requiring no power delivery (such as Naks) all through one box.  Assuming phantom or plug-in mics are essentially the same across those classes you don't necessarily have to have a specific mic in mind. 

Active cabling may limit the future options but that's not your budget here... 

I'd sort like to try a set of his mics sometime too... 

[Todd R]

$1000 is a pretty good budget, and allows for a lot of options. With those options, you should think about what you'd like to accomplish, how you'd like to record, where you'd like to put your money, and what you like for sound.

On the latter, always good to do a lot of listening (say starting with the Live Music Archive) and decide what you like. For instance, I personally haven't found that I prefer the Busman bsc1 setup that much, but many here love them, and they are in your budget and offer a lot of flexibility.

On the Sony M10 and Naiant tinybox, you'll get lots of recommendations on those since they are well regarded, but you might want to consider a different path -- which is not to say you shouldn't also consider the tinybox>M10 combo.  The M10 is a good quality recorder for those who don't want to spend that much on a recorder, it is small which works for those who want to stealth, and it offers a good quality A/D stage for those who own and like to use external mic preamps. All this, plus being out for awhile, leads a lot here to use it and recommend it. And I'm among them -- I have both a M10 and a Naiant littlebox. But if you want to run phantom powered condensor mics, you'll need the M10 and a external preamp like the tinybox. And that combo costs about $500. For that price you can get an all in one recorder like the Roland R26, which will run mics without an external preamp and will allow 4 channel recording if you want to run mics and a couple of soundboard channels.  Or you could spend a little more than the $500 and get a Tascam DR680 allowing you to record 6-8 channels.

Another newbie who just posted about putting together a rig is looking at a Tascam dr-40, which is an all in one recorder you can get for under $150, leaving $850 in your budget for mics, enough for AKGs, Pelusos, Earthworks, and possibly Neumann km184s if you can find a good deal.  And perhaps a bit of a stretch with your budget and the DR40, but there are Earthworks and Pelusos now in the yardsale. 

<insert self promotion> I have a pair of Audix m1290 mics in the yardsale for $315 which I think are great lower cost mics. These could be paired with the R26 or DR680 and allow 4 channel aud + soundboard mix recordings (or pair with the tinybox>M10 combo). Beyond those, you could get the Busman mic set with the R26 and make 4 channel recordings.

Anyway, really rambling I guess, but you could have options with most of your money to mics and just a little towards a cheaper recorder like the DR40. Or you could split your budget between recorder (or recorder plus preamp) and mics.  With the R26 under $500 and the DR680 under $600, you can get mics and a recorder capable of multi-channel recording. If this setup is mainly for recording your band, you'll have access to allow soundboard and/or onstage recording, so multichannel makes a lot of sense.

[mjarema414]

Thanks so much for the input.  You gave me a lot to sort through.  My main goals right now are portability and easy set-up since I have to set up the PA as well.  There are a lot of great options listed here that are within my budget.  What would be better ADC regarding the actual units?  For example, is the Sony M10 better conversion than the Marantz PMB 661?  Do the Marantz preamps compare to the tinybox or is the tinybox a better unit?  Thanks. 

[bombdiggity]

Thanks so much for the input.  You gave me a lot to sort through.  My main goals right now are portability and easy set-up since I have to set up the PA as well.  There are a lot of great options listed here that are within my budget.  What would be better ADC regarding the actual units?  For example, is the Sony M10 better conversion than the Marantz PMB 661?  Do the Marantz preamps compare to the tinybox or is the tinybox a better unit?  Thanks.

The Marantz gives you direct XLR inputs but does not have a minijack mic in (or plug in power for micro mics that would use that).  The M10 has minijack inputs only.  So it may go back to deciding what mics you think you'll use/fly assuming all other things equal (though not sure if they are).  There is a size difference (fairly minor though) and cost difference (or not?).  The M10 seems to be more widely used. 

The Tinybox can be extremely versatile.  The Tinybox pre is IMO a step up from anything built into a unit (and allows you to use any recorder with a clean line in stage).  It is another piece of gear though.  You can get your cables/adapters from Naiant as mentioned (I've been quite happy with mine which have seen fair use), so matching connections should not be a factor. 

It all comes down to what you're recording.  I'd think most about the mics.  If they're not matched to the task it doesn't matter how good the rest is.  On the other hand if they are getting the right sound I doubt almost anyone would hear differences related to what those mics run through and into. 

If your intended purpose is recording in bars/restaurants you are probably starting from a hard place since the usual crowd in those sorts of venues (inattentive chatterers) may make getting a really clean pull difficult.  Typical mic position is the other major factor to consider.  Loud, quiet, lots of (or very little) dynamic range, on stage, "stage lip", from the back?  Recorders don't matter much when it comes to all that. 

[mjarema414]

The Marantz gives you direct XLR inputs but does not have a minijack mic in (or plug in power for micro mics that would use that).  The M10 has minijack inputs only.  So it may go back to deciding what mics you think you'll use/fly assuming all other things equal (though not sure if they are).  There is a size difference (fairly minor though) and cost difference (or not?).  The M10 seems to be more widely used. 

The Tinybox can be extremely versatile.  The Tinybox pre is IMO a step up from anything built into a unit (and allows you to use any recorder with a clean line in stage).  It is another piece of gear though.  You can get your cables/adapters from Naiant as mentioned (I've been quite happy with mine which have seen fair use), so matching connections should not be a factor. 

It all comes down to what you're recording.  I'd think most about the mics.  If they're not matched to the task it doesn't matter how good the rest is.  On the other hand if they are getting the right sound I doubt almost anyone would hear differences related to what those mics run through and into. 

If your intended purpose is recording in bars/restaurants you are probably starting from a hard place since the usual crowd in those sorts of venues (inattentive chatterers) may make getting a really clean pull difficult.  Typical mic position is the other major factor to consider.  Loud, quiet, lots of (or very little) dynamic range, on stage, "stage lip", from the back?  Recorders don't matter much when it comes to all that.

You're right.  I am starting from a hard place.  Lots of bar chatter, loud people.  I'm hoping to get some quality live stuff to put on our website.  There are also nights that I really wish I had recorded from a playing perspective.  It'd be cool to have some of those "special" gigs archived and audible.  Thanks.  Everyone has been great here.

[Gutbucket]

Given that you are recording in difficult situations, and assuming you are somewhat of a technical type (and it sounds like you are since your are the one seting up the PA) then Todd's suggestion of the Tascam DR680 multichannel recorder is likely to be a good route to much better sounding recordings than you will likely to be able to make with just a pair of microphones in a tough room.  It has good built-in preamps and phantom powering and will allow you record both a microphone pair (or more than one pair) and a mix from the PA at the same time.  The microphone pair will record the live sound in the room and the PA mix will provide some welcome forward clarity to the vocals and whatever else goes through there.  You can then mix the two resulting stereo files later and balance the liveness of the room and the dry clarity of the PA mix.  That's a huge advantage over trying to get a balanced and equally good sounding recording from mics alone.  Doing it with one pair of mics alone is possible in a good sounding environment but it takes more experience and good luck to get it right consistantly.  You have both PA and A/C power access so the the DR680 makes sense and will give you great flexibility.  It can record up to 6 analog inputs which can be mics or line-level inputs from the PA or direct outs from amps or keyboards.

You can put the mics either on stage to capture the player's perspective, or farther back in the room to catch more room and crowd reaction.  If you want to get fancier and use more than one pair of mics, you can put both pairs on stage and have one pair capturing the musicians and the other facing out into the audience for room ambience and crowd reaction.  Each mic would go to it's own channel.  The DR680 also allows you to simultaneously record a stereo mix of those 6 inputs on-the-fly (which will probably take a few attempts to dial in correctly) which may be convenient for you, then if the gig was really happening and it makes sense to spend the effort to more carefully mix the 6 individual channels later, you can do that.

It also works fine a 2 channel recorder if you just want to keep things simple, but have the option to do more things as you go along.

[eman]

As someone who has recorded many of my own shows, I have to second the multitrack suggestion. You want to record the soundboard and some ambient mics as well, then mix them to get something special. Acoustic shows in clubs are tough to get right without both, and the mix is almost impossible to set before you start without someone listening with headphones. Mixing two unclocked sources is time consuming. Perhaps consider a small mixer with USB or Firewire out and use a laptop? I know that's a little cumbersome, so probably best to go 4 track or better, and you have the budget for it. Maybe some subcards to keep some of the crowd out but cover a large angle from up close. When you set these up at stage lip, you lose all of the vocals because you are right between the mains and the monitors. So the matrix you make will be heavy on the sbd, but the stage mix really brings it alive *like you are there*.

[mjarema414]

 

Given that you are recording in difficult situations, and assuming you are somewhat of a technical type (and it sounds like you are since your are the one seting up the PA) then Todd's suggestion of the Tascam DR680 multichannel recorder is likely to be a good route to much better sounding recordings than you will likely to be able to make with just a pair of microphones in a tough room.  It has good built-in preamps and phantom powering and will allow you record both a microphone pair (or more than one pair) and a mix from the PA at the same time.  The microphone pair will record the live sound in the room and the PA mix will provide some welcome forward clarity to the vocals and whatever else goes through there.  You can then mix the two resulting stereo files later and balance the liveness of the room and the dry clarity of the PA mix.  That's a huge advantage over trying to get a balanced and equally good sounding recording from mics alone.  Doing it with one pair of mics alone is possible in a good sounding environment but it takes more experience and good luck to get it right consistantly.  You have both PA and A/C power access so the the DR680 makes sense and will give you great flexibility.  It can record up to 6 analog inputs which can be mics or line-level inputs from the PA or direct outs from amps or keyboards.

You can put the mics either on stage to capture the player's perspective, or farther back in the room to catch more room and crowd reaction.  If you want to get fancier and use more than one pair of mics, you can put both pairs on stage and have one pair capturing the musicians and the other facing out into the audience for room ambience and crowd reaction.  Each mic would go to it's own channel.  The DR680 also allows you to simultaneously record a stereo mix of those 6 inputs on-the-fly (which will probably take a few attempts to dial in correctly) which may be convenient for you, then if the gig was really happening and it makes sense to spend the effort to more carefully mix the 6 individual channels later, you can do that.

It also works fine a 2 channel recorder if you just want to keep things simple, but have the option to do more things as you go along.

Thanks for the information on the DR680.  Are the tracks recorded as stereo pair on this unit and is a mixing software required?  I do have Protools 8 on a Mac that I use in a small studio set-up. It looks like they can be mixed on the unit itself and then brought over to a mastering software.  I was hoping to capture the gigs with minimal set-up which is why I wanted to go the direction of just microphones.  Using the board  in addtion to mic set-up does make sense.  I guess I can always give it a shot and see what happens.  Ebay is looking good right about now 

[Gutbucket]

DR680 can be set to write either stereo files (ch 1&2, 3&4, 5&6) or individual mono files (ch 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6).  The 'extra' internal stereo mix-down channel (which can also work as an additional digital input for 8 channels total) always writes a 2-channel stereo file.  If you only wish to record two channels to one stereo file that's not a problem.

Mixing-
You can make a live mix of the analog inputs which is recorded to the 'extra' stereo channel during the gig if you like.  There are level and panning controls for each channel (and Mid/Side decoding, but no EQ).  You'd need to monitor on headphones or simply guess on the correct live mix.  You can also do a mix while playing the files back from the machine later, routed to the analog or digital outputs which you could record to another machine or a computer in real time (the machine cannot playback and record at the same time), but importing the individual files into Protools and doing the mix on the computer will give you far more flexibility.  The playback mix off the machine is a nice option to have for listening back directly off the machine however.

[Gutbucket]

A follow-up note on having the DR680 do a live internal mixdown of inputs to the stereo channel-  This may be useful for you, but I'm not able to simply guess well enough on the mix to get it sounding good enough to satisfy me without listening to it. 

Last night I had 6 channels running into the 680 for an instrumental non-PA amplified show.  All were mics on-stage but setup as a surround array instead of as several seperate stereo pairs as discussed above or as individual instrument mics (three mics were on-stage at the stage lip as a Left/Center/Right array and a pair of spaced cardioids hung under the stagelip facing out into the room for room-ambience/audience-reaction).  I set the interal mix of all 5 channels down to the extra 2-channel stereo channel as I thought might be appropriate, but threw it out when I got home.  Maybe I could get it closer using headphones, but don't have time for that at the gig.  I'd rather mix it properly on the computer later.

[mjarema414]

<insert self promotion> I have a pair of Audix m1290 mics in the yardsale for $315 which I think are great lower cost mics. These could be paired with the R26 or DR680 and allow 4 channel aud + soundboard mix recordings (or pair with the tinybox>M10 combo). Beyond those, you could get the Busman mic set with the R26 and make 4 channel recordings.

Anyway, really rambling I guess, but you could have options with most of your money to mics and just a little towards a cheaper recorder like the DR40. Or you could split your budget between recorder (or recorder plus preamp) and mics.  With the R26 under $500 and the DR680 under $600, you can get mics and a recorder capable of multi-channel recording. If this setup is mainly for recording your band, you'll have access to allow soundboard and/or onstage recording, so multichannel makes a lot of sense.

I was checking into the R26 and the Tascam DR680.  I like the R26 due to it's portability but it looks like there isn't enough inputs to run 2 external mics and  2 soundboard channels. There is also a 1/8 stereo mic input. It looks like I'd have to use the built in mics along with using the 2 xlr/trs inputs for the board.  Am I reading this wrong or missing something?

[Todd R]

Seems like you're reading it right, and missing something.

Yes, for external inputs (other than using the internal mics), there are 2x XLR inputs, and a stereo 1/8" input.  The latter may be listed as a mic input, but it can take a +4dbu signal (which is the nominal level of a professional line level). 

You can send 2 channels of mics into the XLR inputs, and then send 2 more channels from the soundboard into the 1/8" input.  You'll need some kind of conversion cable to get from the board into the 1/8" input, and you might need some attenuators to reduce the level of the board feed.  The soundperson though should be able to lower this level for you down to one the R26 can accept (which should be too hard, as +4dbu is basically line level).