Topic: Gain Question (Tinybox/M10 Combo)

[Cheesecadet]

This might be a dumb question..so here goes.

When recording using a Tinybox into an M10.  Will I get the loudest end result in a recording by having the M10 dial at 4 and increasing the gain on the tinybox  * OR *  have lower gain on the Tinybox and a higher record number on the M10 around 8 or so?

I've always been happy with the result of the recordings I make, but I noticed that while running the Tinybox @ +12dB and the M10 @ 4...my recording peaks around -6dB to -5dB on the recorder...however, upon playback it sounds somewhat low still.  Manual Recording Level setting was used.  I recognized this on a current recording which is why I am inquiring if others have had this issue and how they resolved it???

I assume getting the most gain from the pre is ideal (as opposed the recorder's gain) and is what I have always done, but I did notice this happening on the current recording.  Even when I boosted the levels to 0dB in post it did not sound as "loud" as the other recording that surfaced when the other recordings levels were peaking at only around -3dB.  That combo was done using a Lunatec V2 > PCM-D50, but it sounded much louder despite only peaking at -3dB.

Curious if anyone can give some input on this issue?  Hopefully this all makes sense.  I get the feeling I read about a similar issue somewhere on here before but could not find it.

TIA

[Cheesecadet]

Thanks Jon, that is what I thought. 

Can you explain why a recording that peaks at 0dB would sound quieter than one that peaks at -3dB though?

When I compare the recordings there is a definite difference that is heard.  Both recordings were also done at 24-Bit.

[Ultfris101]

What sample rate? There are reports that at 96khz levels are lower on M10. I think I experienced this about a year ago but switched to 48 to save space and didn't put it together. Haven't had chance to try and reproduce.

[Cheesecadet]

24/48 on both recordings

[Cheesecadet]

I'll take a look at the levels.

It is a non-transformer based TB FWIW

[aaronji]

What sample rate? There are reports that at 96khz levels are lower on M10. I think I experienced this about a year ago but switched to 48 to save space and didn't put it together. Haven't had chance to try and reproduce.

That's not the case, at least on mine.  I recorded the same noise file at 24/48 and 24/96.  Peak and RMS values for both were very close.

[Todd R]

Unless you've talked to the other taper about the recording that surfaced (posted on the LMA or something?), I'd guess that the other recording had post-processing compression applied.  Or perhaps that the limiter on the D50 was used during the recording process.

Our ears will hear louder or softer based on average RMS values, not peak values, so if the other recording used a limiter during the recording process or had compression applied in post, that recording could have a higher RMS sound level than your recording, even though yours peaks higher.

[cashandkerouac]

last night i recorded the Kronos Quartet using my Tinybox and M10, and started the show at my normal default setting (medium gain on TB, M10 gain set to "4").  levels were much lower than expected at the start of the show so i had to increase gain on the M10 to between "6" and "7".  i would have preferred to adjust the gain on the TB, but the switch was not accessible at the time.  i was very worried that the higher gain setting on the M10 would generate a lot more background hiss than i wanted, but this did not prove to be the case. 

my strong preference is to keep the M10 as close to "4" as possible (never below "3") and get most gain from the TB, but if you have to kick up the gain on the M10 you should be fine.   

[hi and lo]

last night i recorded the Kronos Quartet using my Tinybox and M10, and started the show at my normal default setting (medium gain on TB, M10 gain set to "4").  levels were much lower than expected at the start of the show so i had to increase gain on the M10 to between "6" and "7".  i would have preferred to adjust the gain on the TB, but the switch was not accessible at the time.  i was very worried that the higher gain setting on the M10 would generate a lot more background hiss than i wanted, but this did not prove to be the case. 

my strong preference is to keep the M10 as close to "4" as possible (never below "3") and get most gain from the TB, but if you have to kick up the gain on the M10 you should be fine.

For a long time and due to some testing that GuySonic did, it was believed the unity gain value on the M10 was closer to 6 than 4 and there have been plenty of tapes made at the higher settings. With a hot preamp, it's definitely possible to clip at 6, but if your preamp isn't as hot (and the Tinybox definitely isn't a very hot preamp) then you should have no fear running above 4.

[F.O.Bean]

last night i recorded the Kronos Quartet using my Tinybox and M10, and started the show at my normal default setting (medium gain on TB, M10 gain set to "4").  levels were much lower than expected at the start of the show so i had to increase gain on the M10 to between "6" and "7".  i would have preferred to adjust the gain on the TB, but the switch was not accessible at the time.  i was very worried that the higher gain setting on the M10 would generate a lot more background hiss than i wanted, but this did not prove to be the case. 

my strong preference is to keep the M10 as close to "4" as possible (never below "3") and get most gain from the TB, but if you have to kick up the gain on the M10 you should be fine.

For a long time and due to some testing that GuySonic did, it was believed the unity gain value on the M10 was closer to 6 than 4 and there have been plenty of tapes made at the higher settings. With a hot preamp, it's definitely possible to clip at 6, but if your preamp isn't as hot (and the Tinybox definitely isn't a very hot preamp) then you should have no fear running above 4.

I just noticed the last time I ran 9100>m10 my m10 was set to 10. Recording sounds just fine and actually quite good. You gotta get your gain where you gotta get it, right?

[taperdave]

ran my new rig for the first time 2 nights ago M10 at 5 and the tinybow with output transformers at medium
the hanging speaker arrays were bludgeouning me with bass and I kept checking the levels, but it all looked good
the 24/96 files have peaks of -.039 and -.086 for the 2 channels, sounds luscious to my jaded ears
Dave

[F.O.Bean]

ran my new rig for the first time 2 nights ago M10 at 5 and the tinybow with output transformers at medium
the hanging speaker arrays were bludgeouning me with bass and I kept checking the levels, but it all looked good
the 24/96 files have peaks of -.039 and -.086 for the 2 channels, sounds luscious to my jaded ears
Dave

That's some closeass peaks to 0db