Topic: hi guys that's me, got a couple of newbie questions...

[olli66]

hi, my name is Olli, I'm from Germany, I am a big music fan/lover and video editor but I am absolutely new to recording audio.
Last year I shot many concert videos and created multicam mixes from Springsteen concerts (for example http://youtu.be/GpbuyMNlkj4). Besides many Springsteen fans that love my videos I somehow "slided" into recording a concert for a friend who is a musician. She just asked me to record some songs to do a little promotional video. I brought my two cameras, luckily someone else did an external audio recording and once I put together the mix some other people asked me if I could record some of their events, too. Since this is what I enjoy and I see the opportunity to earn some extra money by this I thought to a) upgrade my video gear and b) buy an audio recording device. Since I downloaded hundreds of bootlegs and always see what recorders were used I heard some model names already. But I am still looking for the right recommendation for my needs and some start-up tips. Maybe you can help?
I want to buy ONE field recorder that I can use in two ways: first for recording concerts someone wants me to record and I am allowed to record. Then I'd love to record soundboard audio AND the "room" audio, too for a nice mix. For private use and concerts I am visiting and any sort of recording devices are forbidden I would love to have an easy-to-use and small and "unsuspicious" looking recorder I can sneak in and mount some small microphones to. I guess that is the way it is done. So which device would do this all for me? So far I only found the Zoom H4n to be capable of this and the Tascam DR2d. But these are far from being "unsuspicious" looking...I have seen other devices that looked like mobile phones that some tapers on concerts used but I don't remember the names and don't believe they are capable of recording two sources.
So the first step would be picking a recorder. With recording soundboard audio I don't want to spend a fortune yet on external big microphones. The "room" recording would just be for adding atmosphere to the mix. So again I am looking for something that I can use for both recording a concert in "stealth" mode and recording the "room" while I am also recording the soundboard feed. I cannot spend a fortune on the microphones. I heard there are small ones for over 1000 bucks. That is way too much for me. I need them to have a small cable connection and not the big one (you know what I mean? I don't know the names yet of these inputs). Someone recommended the Church Audio CA14 mics. Would these be a good choice? Any other recommendations?
Final question would be: What cables to use to get the soundboard feed? There are different ways, right? Is it always a cable with one end on my recorder and two ends where the soundboard is? I have no clue of these things and an endless google search didn't really clear things up. I read that I would need four cables to have one for each possible connection to a soundboard (1/4 inch, RCA, XLR,  1/4 stereo headphone jack). Though I do not understand quite clearly yet if I'd have to plug in a cable with two sides on the soundboard and vice versa or just use the line in on my recorder with just one input.
Thanks for taking your time. Any help is really appreciated.

[shownomarcy]

Hi Olli! I guess some much more experienced will answer, but here are my thoughts:

I'm in a bit similar case because I also have somtimes access to record legally and to get soundboard feed.
If I started now, I would surely search a 4 channel recorder so that I could record aud and sbd with 1 recorder, but unfortunately I dont have experience with them.
I have XLR, RCA (with "2 ends" for the soundboard and one little 3,5 jack end to the input of my recorder Edirol R-09HR), JACK stereo (one end) connections for Sbd. You can be often disappointed by sbd audio, its a lottery, so you surely need mics! (Also happened that I got only mono signal) I have at853 (cardioid) mics and just bought CA-14 mainly to have omnidirectional mics too. I had yet my first test, what was great. So what you may missed to note that its good to have 2 pair of mics card and omni too.

[eman]

I'd start with the stealth rig first, with a stand and clips to do open recording as well. 4 channel doesn't seem practical as you want to get close for video where the board isn't. So you will probably end up with two recorders anyway and mix and sync in post processing. I'd start with a handheld recorder (I love my M10) and some CA's or AT853's. Listen to Archive.org to see what different mics sound like. Consider that very directional mics probably won't work so well with the motion of video recording while omnidirectionals will pick up more crowd than you want, so cardioid is probably the direction you want to go. Then a battery box or preamp to deal with high volume levels. When you have board access you can plug in and mix that with the camera or stereo mic audio for presence that the board usually lacks. From what I have read on these forums, you probably want to forget about anything made by Zoom.

PS- I have a Lumix compact regular camera, and it makes excellent video. I have one with 16X optical zoom (ZS series). This is probably easier to get inside than something that is obviously a video camera. I have an adjustable angle boom that I mount to my mic stand with a ball swivel for the camera.

[olli66]

thanks you two for your recommendations, I will dig deeper keeping your recommendations in mind
by the way when I am in stealth mode video taping a show I found there is no better camera than the Sony HX20V, I did multicam mixes and received videos from 30+ tapers all using different cameras and still my HX20V is the best and most of the tapers are now buying the HX20V, too, to have the best for the upcoming Springsteen tour...

[eman]

http://snapsort.com/compare/Panasonic-ZS20-vs-Sony-Cyber-shot-DSC-HX20V
I just did a search of sony hs vs lumix zs, this came up near the top.

[shownomarcy]

If no stealth rec, I thought 4 channel would be good because he could tape both aud and sbd sound from the board. And video could be recorded anywhere, like the first row etc, where the sound might not optimal, so better to leave mics behind.
I recorded some shows stealth with both camera and mics on me and it isn't really comfortable imo. Its true we often have to!

[olli66]

thanks again guys,
@eman: that "review" ain't a real review, no comparison of picture and video quality, believe me, I always had Panasonic cams and the bulit in video quality from the HX20V made me change brands...it's the best
@shadownancy: for recording a concert in stealth mode I found out that many of my favourite tapers use the Church Audio CA-14 mics but most of them use pre-amps. Will I just be fine with a battery box? The audio tapers just need to get in and setup their audio gear but I intend to record audio and video at the same time so my pockets will be full. I need the smallest possible audio gear. So if I just take the battery box Chris Church recommended to me will it be much of a difference in sound quality if I just use this and no pre-amp?
The price for the CA mics is really good and exactly meets my budget. But as Chris said the mics need battery power. Are there other alternative mics which give great sound quality, too, and I can plug in with any extra battery and pre-amp?
edit: if I just buy one mic (I can just record with one mic in stealth) would it be cards or omnis for rock concerts in stealth mode?

[shownomarcy]

I read here that battery box should be enough at loud shows. Preamp is good in case of silent shows with its extra gain. I think there wont be difference. (I sincerely must say I bought a homemade battery box for at 853 mics and I have no idea whats the difference compare to others...)

card or omni depends on what venues you record more? Btw have you got an offer from Chirs? I wanted to buy only one pair of mics first and he offered a really good business, so I bought both card and omni. Ask him, it shouldn't be double price

errr, Marton.

[olli66]

yes, I asked Chris, he made a nice offer for one mic and battery, though he left it open to me to chose between cards and omnis, I am still not sure...
This year I mostly record rock concerts in stealth mode - so the card mics and battery box seem like my first choice. What do you think?
When I record a classical concert where I am allowed to tape and the venue has nice sound and since it's classis, of course, high dynamic range and very silent parts then a preamp would be recommended over the battery box?
at acoustic shows from singer/songwriter's while recording in stealth again the battery box will do?
thanks for your help, I really appreciate this

[LikeASong]

I don't think this looks very suspicious:



And it does exactly what you want it to do (in the opening post at least)

[olli66]

this one doesn't look suspicious at all!
but how come most tapers (at least most I know in the Springsteen scene) use the R-09HR? The best recordings always seem to come from this device...but that would lead to my next question: where to get it? I only found 2 auctions on ebay...
if the Tascam is still produced and similar in terms of handling and QUALITY (not that much important but how to the internal mics compare?) I might go for the more unsuspicious looking one...

[LikeASong]

this one doesn't look suspicious at all!
but how come most tapers (at least most I know in the Springsteen scene) use the R-09HR? The best recordings always seem to come from this device...but that would lead to my next question: where to get it? I only found 2 auctions on ebay...
if the Tascam is still produced and similar in terms of handling and QUALITY (not that much important but how to the internal mics compare?) I might go for the more unsuspicious looking one...

Most tapers use external micrphones, which are MUCH more important in order to get a good recording than the recorder itself. It's true that the R-90 is pretty common among the U2 / Bruce Springsteen tapers, but I think it's just a matter of similarity. If you're a fan of taperX's recordings and you want to get similar quality, you'll probably get similar gear. That's how that big taper bases have been consistently getting similar recorders, but NOT because that recorder will get you a better recording than any other in its price range (or even below).


That being said, if you're looking to EXCLUSIVELY use the internal microphones, I have to vouch for the Zoom internal's. Zoom products are more than often despised due to their relatively poor build quality and their poor preamps, but when it comes to internal mics I think they are among the best. They don't look as inoffensive as the Tascam DR2D I posted above but they're still decently stealthy. On other hand, the Tascam DR-03 / TEAC VR-10 has proved to give excellent results with its internals, it's cheap, easy handling and looks rather inoffensive too.


Summary: if you're looking for the ability to record 4 channels (aka soundboard plus audience at the same time) go for the Tascam I posted above and add a pair of external mics if possible. If 4-in-1 is not mandatory, get a cheap Zoom Q3HD or H2, get the audience recording sorted, and then get another cheap recorder for the SBD recording.

[olli66]

so, I just ordered the Tascam DR2D and just one mic: CA-14 cards and ugly II preamp
I hope I got it all right now: with the tascam I can record simultanouisly line feed and audience? by the way how does it affect battery life if it records two sources? anyone has experience with this?
now I am open for any settings within in the DR2D how to adjust when recording in stealth and how with sbd audio and how if I can place it freely on a mic stand
thanks again guys

[LikeASong]

Wow, that's a good bunch of TOP starter gear, dude! You're going to be very happy with your recordings IF you mount your CA14s the right way. Since they are cardioid, they are specially sensible to your position, movements and orientation; you'll want them to be totally aimed to the PA stacks in order to make the most out of them and get good recordings. In order to do that, you'll need to clip/mount them to a high stand (your head, a tripod, etc) and as quiet as possible during the show.

Yes, you can record SBD and mics at the same time with the DR2D. I suppose the battery drain will be significantly bigger than recording just one feed, but I can't give you exact figures since I don't own the devide. Nevertheless I would carry extra batteries just in case

[shownomarcy]

Good luck!

I think most of your specified questions will be answered in the recorder's topic:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154697.0

p.s.:
Ever happens to see a Hungarian band don't hesitate to push rec