Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)  (Read 4218 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline microburst

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
  • formerly "mcroberts"
Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)
« on: March 21, 2013, 03:12:18 PM »
Any links to readily accessible definitive literature that explains what the resulting recording pattern and angle approximations would result from decoding a coincident mid-side pair using different polar patterns as the mid (e.g., omni, subcardioid, cardioid)?  Let’s just assume here that the mid and side are recorded at the same dB, all else equal.

For example, running omni as the mid what relative decode combination of mid and side would result in a subcard pattern @ 90 degrees, etc.?  Is there a chart?

Offline DigiGal

  • AES Associate Member
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Gender: Female
  • Stay healthy and safe!
    • DigiGal Internet Archive Recordings
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 03:40:20 PM by DigiGal »
Mics: AKG CK91/CK94/CK98/SE300 D-330BT | DPA 4060 4061 4266 | Neumann TLM 103 | Senn ME66/K6/K6RD MKE2 MD421 MD431 | Shure VP88 SM7B SM63L SM58 Anniversary Cables: Gotham GAC-4/1 Quad w/Neutrik EMC | Gotham GAC-2pair w/AKG MK90/3 connectors | DigiGal AES>S/PDIF cable Preamp: SD MixPre-D Recorders: SD MixPre 6 | Marantz PMD 661 Edit: 2011 27" 3.4GHz Quad i7 iMac High Sierra | 2020 13" MBA Quad i7 Catalina | Wave Editor | xACT | Transmission | FCP X 

Offline microburst

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
  • formerly "mcroberts"
Re: Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 03:59:25 PM »
Mid-Side Mic Visualizer by Engineered Stuff

Gracias, pero no tengo iPhone.  :(  The app. looks sweet though - nicely done !!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 04:16:04 PM by microburst »

Offline noahbickart

  • phishrabbi
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2555
  • Gender: Male
  • So now I wander over grounds of light...
Re: Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 04:59:35 PM »
Download the schoeps double m/s vst plugin, and remove the C, and surround channels.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline DigiGal

  • AES Associate Member
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Gender: Female
  • Stay healthy and safe!
    • DigiGal Internet Archive Recordings
Re: Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2013, 05:23:58 PM »
Mid-Side Mic Visualizer by Engineered Stuff

Gracias, pero no tengo iPhone.  :(  The app. looks sweet though - nicely done !!


Then download this AES paper on M-S Technique by Wesley L Dooley and Ronald D. Streicher <-- available free from Wes Dooley's Legacy AEA Library Archive.

The paper is still available for purchase from the AES here but since Wesley has made it available for free there's no reason not to grab it from him as linked above.
Mics: AKG CK91/CK94/CK98/SE300 D-330BT | DPA 4060 4061 4266 | Neumann TLM 103 | Senn ME66/K6/K6RD MKE2 MD421 MD431 | Shure VP88 SM7B SM63L SM58 Anniversary Cables: Gotham GAC-4/1 Quad w/Neutrik EMC | Gotham GAC-2pair w/AKG MK90/3 connectors | DigiGal AES>S/PDIF cable Preamp: SD MixPre-D Recorders: SD MixPre 6 | Marantz PMD 661 Edit: 2011 27" 3.4GHz Quad i7 iMac High Sierra | 2020 13" MBA Quad i7 Catalina | Wave Editor | xACT | Transmission | FCP X 

Offline microburst

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Gender: Male
  • formerly "mcroberts"
Re: Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 07:49:56 AM »
Mid-Side Mic Visualizer by Engineered Stuff

Gracias, pero no tengo iPhone.  :(  The app. looks sweet though - nicely done !!


Then download this AES paper on M-S Technique by Wesley L Dooley and Ronald D. Streicher <-- available free from Wes Dooley's Legacy AEA Library Archive.
This is exactly what I was looking for - good read.

Offline Tom McCreadie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2013, 10:06:34 AM »
Any links to readily accessible definitive literature that explains what the resulting recording pattern and angle approximations would result from decoding a coincident mid-side pair using different polar patterns as the mid (e.g., omni, subcardioid, cardioid)?  Let’s just assume here that the mid and side are recorded at the same dB, all else equal.

For example, running omni as the mid what relative decode combination of mid and side would result in a subcard pattern @ 90 degrees, etc.?  Is there a chart?

The Dooley & Streicher paper, is a good start. If your trig is not too rusty, you can build a a simple spreadsheet to give you all these answers and more.
Thus an 1:1 M:S mix would give the following virtual XY outcomes:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Starting M mic                  =>                     virtual XY     
[polar pattern]                                     included angle   polar pattern 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Omni            =>            180.0      0.500 + 0.500.cos    (cardioid)
    [“V = 1 + 0.cos(theta)”] 

2. Subcardioid   =>      146.6      0.401 + 0.599.cos
    [“V = 0.7 + 0.3cos(theta)”]

3. Cardioid      =>      126.9      0.309 + 0.691.cos    (~ supercardioid)
    [“V = 0.5 + 0.5cos(theta)”]

3. Supercardioid   =>      113.2      0.221 + 0.779.cos
    [“V = 0.34 + 0.66cos(theta)”]

5 Hypercardioid   =>      106.3      0 167+ 0.833.cos
    [“V = 0.25 + 0.75cos(theta)”]

6 Fig-8                =>       90.0      0.000 + 1.000cos    (Fig-8)
  [“V = 0 + 1.cos(theta)”]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(all above pertains only to non-existent perfect mics)

To generate a subcardioid virtual mic, the starting M mic has to be fatter than subcard. An omni will – logically, from symmetry considerations alone! – always generate back to back (180 deg.) virtual XY mics. And to get a subcardioid of nominal “0.7 + 0.3.cos” pattern, you would need an extra 7.36dB omni gain (M:S ratio 2.33:1).

If you doggedly want subcardioid XY at 90 deg., then you would need to start with an “even fatter subcardioid” as mid M – and apply a large dosage of M gain  .For example, 11.87dB gain on a mid M of pattern “V = 0.745 + 0.255.cos(theta)” would yield a 90deg mic splay, with a subcardioid pattern of 0.674 + 0.326.cos(theta). Such an M mic is unlikely to exist.

But what you want is always theoretically posssible with a 3-mic array: (a)  two Fig-8's plus an omni, or (b) double M/S, with back to back cardioids plus one Fig-8. Such arrays allow you to get any first order virtual mic pattern, at any mic angling.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 02:55:28 PM by Tom McCreadie »

Offline Todd R

  • Over/Under on next gear purchase: 2 months
  • Trade Count: (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4901
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mid-Side Decode Approximations (Various mid patterns)
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2013, 12:27:43 PM »
I often find myself referring to this paper on mid-side:

www.midside.com/pdf/nyu/masters_thesis.pdf

Hopefully the student has it right, since it is just his masters thesis, but it has a good breakdown of info on MS.  Starting at page 28, he shows the resulting patterns of various mixes of a fig8 side with a mid omni, subcard, card, hypercard, etc.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.056 seconds with 31 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF