Topic: Schoeps, stealth and a 722

[Duncan]

Hi

First, sorry I'm sure this info is all on here somewhere but who here doesn't like talking about mics a bit more :-)

I'm thinking about getting some Schoeps to go with my 722 but I'd like some advice

I record mainly loud rock music with the occasional Andy Mckee type gig
I normally (always) record front of stack, I'm not adverse to trying elsewhere
I have to record stealth (it's the default in UK)

So which sort would you recommend? Colette or CMM or something else
Which cap type?
How can they be stelthed?
How are they best connected to a 722 (I don't want to add any pre-amp or other box in the chain really as it's hard enough to stealth a 722 already)
What's the best place to buy them (by best I mainly mean cheapest)
[Insert other question here that I should have asked and then feel free to answer that as well :-)]

Many thanks in advance

Duncan

[acidjack]

If price is no object and you don't care about flexibility (i.e., ability to change caps) I think the CCM4Vs are the optimal choice. They're also very expensive.

That said, Doubled has some CCM4s for sale in the yard sale for $2750, which is an insanely good price. Not quite as good as CCM4Vs for stealthing, but quite good.

How to stealth?  Think about hats.  I'd be more worried about what to do about the 722

The beauty of the CCMs is exactly what you identified - just plug 'em straight into the 722 and go.

For a less-expensive option, you could also use a Schoeps KCY cable with MK4V capsules and a "PFA", which is a custom part you'd have to get made by Naiant and then cabled by someone else. 

For what you are doing, and given you already have the 722, I'd just get CCMs.

I don't know the best place to buy in Europe/UK. Given exchange rates, if you ever made a trip to NYC, you could buy them from Jerry Bruck at Posthorn and probably still come out ahead  

I'd PM ianmacd on here.  He is also in the UK/EU and he has been running CCM41Vs quite happily for a while.  I'm sure he can help you out.

[page]

Which is a bigger issue/challange for you;

A) hiding the mics during transit or use
B) hiding the recorder & accessories during transit or use

If A is a bigger challange, then look at the caps and collete options. If B is the space/logistical constraint, then I'd pick the ccms

All other things being equal of course, and sadly they arent. Price and subsequent polar pattern expansion are two other things to consider.

[yates7592]

Yes I would also recommend to contact ianmacd. He went through a similar decision process to you, albeit with a PMD661.

[Brian Skalinder]

I know this doesn't answer your question directly, but...

If it were me, I'd leave the 722 out of it for stealthing.  For the price of a pair of CCMs, you could pick up:

• Schoeps MKx caps
• Active cables
• Tinybox
• M10

This would allow you to add different MKx caps in future, if you wanted, with substantially lower cost than adding a new pair of CCMs.

Check the Retail Forum for I think a couple different current options for active cables and Naiant Studios (Jon Stoppable) for the Tinybox.  Or, as I'm not entirely up to speed on current options, ignore this post entirely.

$0.02

[Duncan]

I know this doesn't answer your question directly, but...

If it were me, I'd leave the 722 out of it for stealthing.  For the price of a pair of CCMs, you could pick up:

• Schoeps MKx caps
• Active cables
• Tinybox
• M10

This would allow you to add different MKx caps in future, if you wanted, with substantially lower cost than adding a new pair of CCMs.

Check the Retail Forum for I think a couple different current options for active cables and Naiant Studios (Jon Stoppable) for the Tinybox.  Or, as I'm not entirely up to speed on current options, ignore this post entirely.

$0.02

Hi Guys

Thanks for the responses

Brian, To answer your last point first, I've had the 722 for a few years now and it's absolutely no problem stealthing that in the UK as we don't have serious door checks over here. So I'm not looking to use a different recorder.
With regard to my main concern. it's Mics in use. Not being obvious when actually doing the recording. I've only ever been stopped once taking a recorder into a gig and that was a massif ghetto-blaster 30 odd years ago.

Your answer does highlight one of my problems and that is that I don't understand cables. Active?!? what's that all about?

I do like the idea of the MKx option as it seems a lot more versatile but they look bigger.

I hear talk of hats I've checked them out but I'm not sure if it's the style that makes me look like a reject from the Stone Roses or the one that makes me look like I keep Ferrets! Either way I can't imagine how they hold the mics and keep them hidden

I feel a bit awkward asking about these mics as I tend not to be to concerned with the technical side of taping and more interested in the end result. That's why I don't know anything about this topic, so sorry to come across like a dummy

I guess I'm not limiting myself to Schopes but I figure it 's easier if I do

Anyway thanks again

Duncan

ps. One other thing I'm under knowledged on is the pros and cons of the different cordioid mics
I've alway avoided them as I figured that they would pick up my movements if say I was looking round with them mounted on my head

[johnw]

You are going to have unpleasant results if the directional microphones are moving much (i.e. looking around with them mounted to your head)

If you are set on not using an external preamp, I would also recommend the Schoeps MK4V or MK41V with some sort of cabling setup (KCY>PFA, Followinbob>PFA, Nbox cable>PFA) but you are going to take a hit on sensitivity doing this and will have to apply more gain.

To avoid as much hit on sensitivity, look into a Schoeps CMR cable setup with PFAs.

If it isn't clear, PFAs allow phantom power from your 722 xlr in to be applied across the (active) cable to your capsule. As far as I know, the only available manufacturer for PFA in this use is Naiant (Jon Stoppable on this board).

For the best possible performance, I would look into a pair of Schoeps CCM4V or CCM41V, but as others have said, this does not allow you to switch capsules and is more expensive and not as readily available on the used market. That said, if you only use these microphones in a hidden fashion, I think it is unlikely that you would need different capsules.

You will get a wide variety of opinions on the impact of the above cabling solutions using Schoeps capsules on performance. Whether you can appreciate any difference is not something someone can tell you, you would have to decide for yourself. I believe the majority opinion is that any difference is not audible especially when recording in a less than ideal environment. There certainly does remain a technical difference and you would be taking some risk damaging your equipment if you are using outside of Schoeps' recommended use.

[johnw]

I should also add the the DPA 4021 is a very compact and well regarded solution. The idea behind the 4V, 41V and 4021 is that the longitudinal axis between the capsule and the rear housing (including cable) is very short so they can be placed in a compact space very easily. It might be easier to understand if you look at pictures of the 4021 compared to 4022 or ccm4V compared to CCM4.

[yousef]

Very happy DPA 4022 and ferret-owner-hat user here...

If you PM me your email address I can send on some photos of my set up and details of where I got the various bits and bobs from this evening.

[Duncan]

I should also add the the DPA 4021 is a very compact and well regarded solution. The idea behind the 4V, 41V and 4021 is that the longitudinal axis between the capsule and the rear housing (including cable) is very short so they can be placed in a compact space very easily. It might be easier to understand if you look at pictures of the 4021 compared to 4022 or ccm4V compared to CCM4.

There seems to be to many options for my simple brain
I was looking at Neumanns & Milabs today

How does anyone ever decide?

Duncan

[acidjack]

How does anyone ever decide?

Duncan

Set a budget.
Listen to recordings you like, decide what you think sounds best.

For what you propose, assuming they're in your budget, the best options are Schoeps CCMs or DPAs, because neither requires either (a) full-size mic bodies somewhere in the chain or (b) homemade/non-proprietary equipment to make it work.  Milabs and Neumanns are excellent mics, but to run them stealth, you still have to have the actual mic bodies somewhere.  You can also stealth with AKGs or MBHOs or Microtech-Gefells or Beyerdynamics, though those solutions all require homemade gear.

Given how broad and vague your question is and the amount of money you're spending, you probably ought to do a lot more listening and reading before you make up your mind.

[Duncan]

How does anyone ever decide?

Duncan

Set a budget.
Listen to recordings you like, decide what you think sounds best.

For what you propose, assuming they're in your budget, the best options are Schoeps CCMs or DPAs, because neither requires either (a) full-size mic bodies somewhere in the chain or (b) homemade/non-proprietary equipment to make it work.  Milabs and Neumanns are excellent mics, but to run them stealth, you still have to have the actual mic bodies somewhere.  You can also stealth with AKGs or MBHOs or Microtech-Gefells or Beyerdynamics, though those solutions all require homemade gear.

Given how broad and vague your question is and the amount of money you're spending, you probably ought to do a lot more listening and reading before you make up your mind.

Hi AcidJack

Well budget wise I've not set a limit but less is better, I've not quite got more money than sense,but if I want a particular make I'll get it and worry about the money later (I'm happy to go second hand)

I've listened to some CMM recordings and they sound great but lets be honest the recordings from all the mics mentioned here sound good don't they? Well if you're listening to the music and not the recording.
That said I can hear the increase in quality of these mics compaired with my 6041s

Could you point me to some pictures or describe how the mics would be attached to the 722 if none of these troublesome cabling and pre type boxes solutions are needed
Is it as simple as my DPA 6041 >722 set-up?

How to the Mics get their power?

I suppose the key requirements are

Excellent sound
No additional boxes (Unless it's a very small box)
straightforward cabling
Stealthable both getting in and while recording (more this than getting in)
If they can be stealthed without resorting to a hat so much the better
works well with a 722
Available in Europe at a price comparable to the US (I can dream)

Thanks for your help and sorry for my vagueness

Duncan

[followinbob]

getting the 722 in by security is no big deal. i have been stealthing 200+ shows using schoeps cmc-6/mk4--> kc-5 cables--> 722 for years.
before that it was the lunatec v-3---> dat.

[schoepsnbox]

Pm me for a price quote on a set of schoeps cables with Pfas which would also allow you to use any schoeps capsule..essentially like the ccms with switchable cap option.

[sparkey]

Hypers, not cards