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Author Topic: First recording with MKH8040  (Read 6922 times)

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Offline skimmel

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First recording with MKH8040
« on: April 26, 2013, 07:20:29 PM »
So, I am very new to live recording and happy to get feedback on this recording.  This was my first recording with the Sennheiser MKH8040s in X/Y, through an SD702.  It's an excerpt of a high school a capella group in a large church.  I got there just as they were starting and barely had time to set up.  I did some EQ and compression in post and tried to clean up most of the extraneous noises.

Anyway, curious to get feedback.  (Also, not sure how to embed audio file in the forum so you can play it without downloading -- happy to do that if someone can tell me how).

Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 07:24:02 PM by skimmel »

Offline skimmel

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2013, 11:21:20 PM »
Any feedback from anyone?

cashandkerouac

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 05:59:42 PM »
i'm not a big fan of "X/Y", but to my ears it sounds very good.  in a big room with lots of hard surfaces the tighter "X/Y" configuration may have been a wise choice.  can you provide some more info about your taping location and the specifics of your setup?   
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 06:03:44 PM by bass_ur_face »

Offline skimmel

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 09:34:10 PM »
i'm not a big fan of "X/Y", but to my ears it sounds very good.  in a big room with lots of hard surfaces the tighter "X/Y" configuration may have been a wise choice.  can you provide some more info about your taping location and the specifics of your setup?

Thanks for the feedback.  It was, you're right, a very large room with high ceilings and hard surfaces.  I put the mics about 15 feet from the farthest singer in the chorus (that's the closest I could get) right behind the conductor.  I would have liked to be closer, but the conductor wouldn't have liked the mike between him and the chorus  :D

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2013, 06:20:20 PM »
I also don't care for XY but that sample sounds pretty good. Lots of high end for sure. I thought the 8040s were darker than that?
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Offline skimmel

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2013, 08:51:53 PM »
I also don't care for XY but that sample sounds pretty good. Lots of high end for sure. I thought the 8040s were darker than that?

Thanks.  May have been the way I EQ'ed it. 

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2013, 09:21:11 PM »
I also don't care for XY but that sample sounds pretty good. Lots of high end for sure. I thought the 8040s were darker than that?

Thanks.  May have been the way I EQ'ed it. 

Yeah that's prob why! I like my schoeps so much I NEVER EQ? of course I've never really EQd my recordings. I find gear I like the way it is soi never have to EQ what I get!
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Offline skimmel

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2013, 09:26:16 PM »
I also don't care for XY but that sample sounds pretty good. Lots of high end for sure. I thought the 8040s were darker than that?

Thanks.  May have been the way I EQ'ed it. 

Yeah that's prob why! I like my schoeps so much I NEVER EQ? of course I've never really EQd my recordings. I find gear I like the way it is soi never have to EQ what I get!

I actually did very little EQ on this -- mostly just trying to balance out the chorus a bit.


Offline DSatz

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2013, 04:04:20 PM »
There are good reasons for people's criticisms of X/Y recording, particularly with cardioids. The main defect is a lack of spaciousness although that can be mitigated if two principles are followed. (1) is to use single-diaphragm cardioids (such as your Sennheiser 80x0s) rather than dual-diaphragm cardioids (e.g. nearly all large-diaphragm condensers), while (2) is to set a sufficient angle between the main axes of the microphones.

The reasons: For (1) it's essential to realize that a cardioid pattern just isn't sharply directional. In effect it's a 50/50 mix of an omni with a figure-8. If you place two cardioids at the same location, even if you set them facing in opposite directions (back-to-back), half the sound energy that they each pick up will be identical in intensity and time between the two channels, i.e. the mono component of this type of recording is at least 50%.

If you're into visualizing equivalences of this kind: A coincident pair of cardioids = a single omni mike coincident with a pair of figure-8s, where the left cardioid output = the signal from the left figure-8 plus the signal from the omni, while the right cardioid output = the signal from the right figure-8 plus the signal from that same omni.

But as bad as that situation is to start with, it's valid only for ideal cardioids. And among condenser microphones, only small, single-diaphragm cardioids can possibly maintain a cardioid pattern across their entire frequency range. The pattern inevitably gets a little narrower at the very top, because even what we call "small" microphones are "large" compared to sound waves in the top octave--but with larger microphones that narrowing begins farther down in the frequency range, so the distinction still matters. Meanwhile, dual-diaphragm cardioids--including nearly every large-diaphragm cardioid ever made by anyone--lose directivity at low frequencies, which means that a coincident pair of them will have an even greater overlap (signal correlation) between channels, just in the frequency region where the difference information is most responsible for providing a sense of spaciousness.

So that's why it's so important to use small, single-diaphragm cardioids, if you're going to use a coincident (X/Y) setup with cardioids of any kind.

For (2): In two-microphone stereo recording you don't "aim" individual microphones at sound sources; instead, you decide the width of sound field that you want to reproduce between your loudspeakers, and you set up your microphone pair so that its stereophonic recording angle fits the width of that field. You do that even if that means that your microphones "point" beyond the speakers or other sound sources. That's counterintuitive for a lot of people, but it's what works.

Now, I first learned how to record in stereo in the early 1970s, and back then the prevalent advice was to take two cardioid microphones and aim them head to head with a 90° angle between them. That was supposed to give good localization of sound sources--and in that respect yes, it did give acceptable results. But for one thing, the microphones actually blocked each other's pickup of high frequency direct sound; "head-to-head" microphone setups are hardly ever recommended any more for that reason.

But the main thing is, a mere 90° angle between two cardioids is like the situation I described earlier except that instead of a 50% overlap in what the two microphones pick up, the overlap becomes 75%. That's ridiculous; if the direct sound is coming from the front, then with a setup like that, the direct sound will be reproduced almost entirely in mono.

I really urge people if they're going to use X/Y miking with cardioids to start with, say, 120° between the main axes of the microphones--and depending on the room and the setup, an even wider angle might sound better.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 04:10:24 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline skimmel

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2013, 04:13:18 PM »
Wow, that's incredibly useful info!  When you discuss two-microphone stereo recording are you referring to spaced pair setup? 


Offline fguidry

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2013, 01:37:46 AM »
Was there an audience or was this a rehearsal or other non-attended function?

A room full of hard surfaces will return a lot of high frequency energy in the reflections, which may account for the observation about the tonal balance.

I believe most of the recording done by Taperssection regulars is amplified music, quite different from your goals.

Mr. Satz on the other hand has focused on acoustic sources.

In one sense the original performance is the gold standard for your recording effort. How does your track measure up to what you heard in the room?

Fran

Offline Tom McCreadie

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2013, 08:41:17 AM »
As DSatz ponted out, if you insist on staying with coincident XY, you'ld generally be better opening up the splay to around 120°.
Another way to understand this is to remember that intensity-only stereo requires a channel difference of ca. 15dB for a sound source to appear as if it's coming from the extreme edge of the playback image (i.e. located in one speaker). But an ideal cardioid mic, with a "1 + cos(theta)" polar pattern, is only 6dB down at 90° off-axis. Thus 90° XY cardioids are destined to give a narrow stage width.

Offline Jonmac

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2013, 12:43:38 PM »
Does anyone have an opinion on the suitability of an ORTF set up for this type of recording ?
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2013, 01:05:20 PM »
FWIW, I do a good deal of my critical AUD tape listening over headphones (I'm a graduate student by day and parent by night).

X/Y recordings tend to sound better on headphones than they do over speakers.
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Offline skimmel

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Re: First recording with MKH8040
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 01:55:19 PM »
FWIW, I do a good deal of my critical AUD tape listening over headphones (I'm a graduate student by day and parent by night).

X/Y recordings tend to sound better on headphones than they do over speakers.

Interesting observation -- I've noticed that with this recording (but it's my first so figured it was just poor editing/panning)

 

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