Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences

[dogmusic]

As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes.

I actually had the opposite experience. Listening closely to an M10 ambient recording I have posted in this thread, I felt that the stereo spread seemed wider when there were no sounds nearby.

Really interesting -- my own time spent with the M10 proves the opposite. The more distant the sound source, the more mono-like M10's recordings become. This is not necessarily bad or unfavorable -- I sometimes prefer that feature of the M10, but it's never been my number-one choice when it comes to stereo recording via built-in mics.

Well, we all hear differently.

I think stereo recording via built-in mics is always a compromise no matter what the configuration. Cardiods in x-y on a recorder are usually not far enough apart and give only slightly better stereo spread if you're recording a band. And they are poor for nature recording because they reject so much of the ambient sound. I've had the same problem even using an external stereo microphone like the BP4025 for ambience.

The M10's internal mics may be its Achilles heel for some, but all-in-all, for the OP, I'd say it is the best choice of recorder for nature sounds because it has such inherent low noise and the omni mics capture so much of the environment. The M10 is a great sound-catcher, or sound-collector. You can keep it in a bag like a point-and-shoot camera. Long battery life, hardy, and teams up well with preamps.

And there was one in the yard sale -- last time I looked -- for only $150!

[Gutbucket]

I hate this thread.

^^
The motivation to post that train clip.

[Amir]

As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes.

I actually had the opposite experience. Listening closely to an M10 ambient recording I have posted in this thread, I felt that the stereo spread seemed wider when there were no sounds nearby.

Really interesting -- my own time spent with the M10 proves the opposite. The more distant the sound source, the more mono-like M10's recordings become. This is not necessarily bad or unfavorable -- I sometimes prefer that feature of the M10, but it's never been my number-one choice when it comes to stereo recording via built-in mics.

Well, we all hear differently.

I think stereo recording via built-in mics is always a compromise no matter what the configuration. Cardiods in x-y on a recorder are usually not far enough apart and give only slightly better stereo spread if you're recording a band. And they are poor for nature recording because they reject so much of the ambient sound. I've had the same problem even using an external stereo microphone like the BP4025 for ambience.

The M10's internal mics may be its Achilles heel for some, but all-in-all, for the OP, I'd say it is the best choice of recorder for nature sounds because it has such inherent low noise and the omni mics capture so much of the environment. The M10 is a great sound-catcher, or sound-collector. You can keep it in a bag like a point-and-shoot camera. Long battery life, hardy, and teams up well with preamps.

And there was one in the yard sale -- last time I looked -- for only $150!

Agreed -- when price and recorder size/weight come into play, nothing can beat the M10. It's a little gem, but if I were recording stuff out in the wild and better stereo representation were my aim, I'd use the D50 or the H6. The D100 presumably does a great job (I don't have it yet), but it's out of the question for many as getting it is like purchasing 3 or 4 M10s simultaneously!

[Jonmac]

The XY's on the Zoom H6 can be set either to a 90-degree or to a 120-degree pattern. If it's quiet enough it might be a good choice but honestly, I don't think it is.

Is you opinion based on experience with the H6, or just a gut feeling ?

I have an H6 and am very happy with the preamps.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I hate this thread.

^^
The motivation to post that train clip.

I hate the fixation on inherently compromised internal mics, when the clear solution is externals. Even cheap extrernals.

[dogmusic]

As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes.

I actually had the opposite experience. Listening closely to an M10 ambient recording I have posted in this thread, I felt that the stereo spread seemed wider when there were no sounds nearby.

Really interesting -- my own time spent with the M10 proves the opposite. The more distant the sound source, the more mono-like M10's recordings become. This is not necessarily bad or unfavorable -- I sometimes prefer that feature of the M10, but it's never been my number-one choice when it comes to stereo recording via built-in mics.

Well, we all hear differently.

I think stereo recording via built-in mics is always a compromise no matter what the configuration. Cardiods in x-y on a recorder are usually not far enough apart and give only slightly better stereo spread if you're recording a band. And they are poor for nature recording because they reject so much of the ambient sound. I've had the same problem even using an external stereo microphone like the BP4025 for ambience.

The M10's internal mics may be its Achilles heel for some, but all-in-all, for the OP, I'd say it is the best choice of recorder for nature sounds because it has such inherent low noise and the omni mics capture so much of the environment. The M10 is a great sound-catcher, or sound-collector. You can keep it in a bag like a point-and-shoot camera. Long battery life, hardy, and teams up well with preamps.

And there was one in the yard sale -- last time I looked -- for only $150!

Agreed -- when price and recorder size/weight come into play, nothing can beat the M10. It's a little gem, but if I were recording stuff out in the wild and better stereo representation were my aim, I'd use the D50 or the H6. The D100 presumably does a great job (I don't have it yet), but it's out of the question for many as getting it is like purchasing 3 or 4 M10s simultaneously!

If I were recording stuff out in the wild and better stereo representation were my aim, I wouldn't use internal mics.

[Amir]

As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes.

I actually had the opposite experience. Listening closely to an M10 ambient recording I have posted in this thread, I felt that the stereo spread seemed wider when there were no sounds nearby.

Really interesting -- my own time spent with the M10 proves the opposite. The more distant the sound source, the more mono-like M10's recordings become. This is not necessarily bad or unfavorable -- I sometimes prefer that feature of the M10, but it's never been my number-one choice when it comes to stereo recording via built-in mics.

Well, we all hear differently.

I think stereo recording via built-in mics is always a compromise no matter what the configuration. Cardiods in x-y on a recorder are usually not far enough apart and give only slightly better stereo spread if you're recording a band. And they are poor for nature recording because they reject so much of the ambient sound. I've had the same problem even using an external stereo microphone like the BP4025 for ambience.

The M10's internal mics may be its Achilles heel for some, but all-in-all, for the OP, I'd say it is the best choice of recorder for nature sounds because it has such inherent low noise and the omni mics capture so much of the environment. The M10 is a great sound-catcher, or sound-collector. You can keep it in a bag like a point-and-shoot camera. Long battery life, hardy, and teams up well with preamps.

And there was one in the yard sale -- last time I looked -- for only $150!

Agreed -- when price and recorder size/weight come into play, nothing can beat the M10. It's a little gem, but if I were recording stuff out in the wild and better stereo representation were my aim, I'd use the D50 or the H6. The D100 presumably does a great job (I don't have it yet), but it's out of the question for many as getting it is like purchasing 3 or 4 M10s simultaneously!

If I were recording stuff out in the wild and better stereo representation were my aim, I wouldn't use internal mics.

If my recordings were that critical, I'd pair the D50 (or the D100) with my SD USBPre2, a USB battery and 2 high-quality external mics. That would give me excellent stereo representation. The M10 doesn't have a digital input and can't sit in this chain.

[dogmusic]

As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes.

I actually had the opposite experience. Listening closely to an M10 ambient recording I have posted in this thread, I felt that the stereo spread seemed wider when there were no sounds nearby.

Really interesting -- my own time spent with the M10 proves the opposite. The more distant the sound source, the more mono-like M10's recordings become. This is not necessarily bad or unfavorable -- I sometimes prefer that feature of the M10, but it's never been my number-one choice when it comes to stereo recording via built-in mics.

Well, we all hear differently.

I think stereo recording via built-in mics is always a compromise no matter what the configuration. Cardiods in x-y on a recorder are usually not far enough apart and give only slightly better stereo spread if you're recording a band. And they are poor for nature recording because they reject so much of the ambient sound. I've had the same problem even using an external stereo microphone like the BP4025 for ambience.

The M10's internal mics may be its Achilles heel for some, but all-in-all, for the OP, I'd say it is the best choice of recorder for nature sounds because it has such inherent low noise and the omni mics capture so much of the environment. The M10 is a great sound-catcher, or sound-collector. You can keep it in a bag like a point-and-shoot camera. Long battery life, hardy, and teams up well with preamps.

And there was one in the yard sale -- last time I looked -- for only $150!

Agreed -- when price and recorder size/weight come into play, nothing can beat the M10. It's a little gem, but if I were recording stuff out in the wild and better stereo representation were my aim, I'd use the D50 or the H6. The D100 presumably does a great job (I don't have it yet), but it's out of the question for many as getting it is like purchasing 3 or 4 M10s simultaneously!

If I were recording stuff out in the wild and better stereo representation were my aim, I wouldn't use internal mics.

If my recordings were that critical, I'd pair the D50 (or the D100) with my SD USBPre2, a USB battery and 2 high-quality external mics. That would give me excellent stereo representation. The M10 doesn't have a digital input and can't sit in this chain.

That's true. The M10 doesn't have a digital input.

But the M10 has an excellent line-in and does a great job with a good preamp like the USBPre2. I did a comp somewhere in this forum between the D50 and the M10 using Beyer MC930's > Audient Mico > line-in of those recorders, and there wasn't much difference.

[Amatsubu]

I hate this thread.

^^
The motivation to post that train clip.

I hate the fixation on inherently compromised internal mics, when the clear solution is externals. Even cheap extrernals.

Where did I write that I plan on using internals for the rest of my life? Besides, a pair of binaural mics can hardly be considered "internal"... I'm merely looking for something to start with and I want to buy the best I can afford. I don't think that cheap externals with noise floor possibly higher than that of the M10's itself could be considered a "clear solution".

The XY's on the Zoom H6 can be set either to a 90-degree or to a 120-degree pattern. If it's quiet enough it might be a good choice but honestly, I don't think it is.

Is you opinion based on experience with the H6, or just a gut feeling ?

I have an H6 and am very happy with the preamps.

No, it's just a gut feeling. I'm sure that the H6 is a good machine but it seems to be geared towards musicians. If its self-noise would be as low as the M10's I'd buy it in an instant, the XLR inputs would really come in handy somewhere down the road. Maybe you could make a short nature recording with its internal mics? I'd really appreciate that:)

Ha, what?

I wonder how XY mics would work... I know they're geared towards musicians but I'm quite curious. The XY's on the Zoom H6 can be set either to a 90-degree or to a 120-degree pattern. If it's quiet enough it might be a good choice but honestly, I don't think it is.

Good quality mics and preamps can superceed subtleties of configuration. I haven't heard the H6, but I've been impressed by a couple recordings made with the H4N of bands in a small room, even though I probably would have prefered a different configuration rather than x/y for that.

One of the reasons x/y with cardioids doesn't sound as "ambient and spacious" as other configurations is that most of the reverberation and ambience that arrives at the microphone pair from outside of the forward facing "window" will be correlated and effectively mono.  A wider angle between mics helps compensate for that a little bit, and although not an option with built-ins, x/y with mic patterns that have a reverse polarity lobe such as supercardioid or figure-8 do a better job of avoiding that.

It really depends on what you want to convey.  Field full of crickets, immersive subway echos, babling brook, the red-tailed hawk screech in the canyon, stuff like that I'd lean towards spaced omnis, and x/y for a ping-pong match, train passing, footsteps, lecture, and stuff like that.  Well, maybe baffled omnis for the train going by, since the low-frequency infrasonic rumble that the omnis will catch is a major portion of the magic in that, with the baffle providing clear directional imaging as it passes.

I know it all depends on what I want to record but I'll probably record every interesting thing I happen to come across. I'd prefer the H6 due to its XLR inputs and maybe slightly better stereo field but I'm not sure about its noise floor. With the M10, I won't be able to splash out on a Usbpre2 with external mics.

[Gutbucket]

With the M10, I won't be able to splash out on a Usbpre2 with external mics.

Why not?  You can use the unbalanced outputs from the UsbPre2 into the M10 instead of the XLR outputs, which is how everyone around here runs external preamps into the M10.  It's not a balanced connection between the two, but you'll probably have the preamp in close proximity to the recorder, so that unbalanced cable run won't be long (which makes it less suseptible to interference) and is a line-level connection that is less prone to interference pickup than an unbalanced microphone cable to a pair of low powered mics.  Most people don't experience many interference problems with decently built unbalanced low-powerd mics either, although it happens occassionally and seemed to happen more frequenty when in close proximity to cell phone interference.

Not saying the M10 is the better choice for you. Only pointing out that it is no problem using a Usbpre2 and external mics with it.

[dallman]

It seems like the Tascam DR 100mkII would be a good fit. It has omni and cardioid mics built in, has XLR inputs and takes a digi in. There is a great deal of information here about the deck much of it is here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152321.0

[Amatsubu]

With the M10, I won't be able to splash out on a Usbpre2 with external mics.

Why not?  You can use the unbalanced outputs from the UsbPre2 into the M10 instead of the XLR outputs, which is how everyone around here runs external preamps into the M10.  It's not a balanced connection between the two, but you'll probably have the preamp in close proximity to the recorder, so that unbalanced cable run won't be long (which makes it less suseptible to interference) and is a line-level connection that is less prone to interference pickup than an unbalanced microphone cable to a pair of low powered mics.  Most people don't experience many interference problems with decently built unbalanced low-powerd mics either, although it happens occassionally and seemed to happen more frequenty when in close proximity to cell phone interference.



Not saying the M10 is the better choice for you. Only pointing out that it is no problem using a Usbpre2 and external mics with it.

I know all that but it's simply too expensive and that's the only reason;p I don't know whether the M10 is the right choice but I don't think I have that many options to choose from. It's either the M10 or the H6.

[Gutbucket]

Ok, appologies for overly wording up here.  Those things are often not obvious for those just getting started with this stuff, yet you seem to have a pretty good handle on things.

It seems like the Tascam DR 100mkII would be a good fit. It has omni and cardioid mics built in, has XLR inputs and takes a digi in. There is a great deal of information here about the deck much of it is here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152321.0

That one crossed my mind when XLR input was mentioned early on.  I didn't realize it had both omnis and cardioids built-in, which may be an advantage here if they sound decent (and the cardboard baffle-improvement thing still applies to these built-in omnis).  Not sure of the noise specs or cost but worth taking a look at this one as well.

[Chimney Top]

Here is a recording with the Roland R26 internal cardioid mic's.

https://soundcloud.com/user203526/david-byrne-and-st-vincent

[AB52]

Exactly what I do.  Two Schoeps mics to USBpre2 with external battery to Sony D50.  Sound is great.  Only problem is I am tried of the cables between the battery and USBpre2 and the D50.  I use velcro so the three units - battery unit, usbpre2 and D50 stay together - but still I would rather have one portable unit with the external mics - like a SD 702 or better.
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If my recordings were that critical, I'd pair the D50 (or the D100) with my SD USBPre2, a USB battery and 2 high-quality external mics. That would give me excellent stereo representation. The M10 doesn't have a digital input and can't sit in this chain.
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