Topic: Mic Recommendations.......(the dreaded newbie thread - sorry!)

[buckster]

Hey everyone - newbie here and thanks for allowing me on board!  I didn't know about this place until a week ago - what a find.  I was doing a crash course on microphones and stumbled onto this site, and wow, what a wealth of experience and knowledge here.  I've been recording a local band for the past few years and uploading the shows to the LMA.  It's a Grateful Dead band and someone else had done an excellent job of recording and the LMA uploads for many years before my involvement.  The band has a rather loyal following and when he was no longer doing the recording, well that was just not an acceptable situation!  lol.  So there was a group purchase of a Zoom H4N, and a friend and I offered to do the recordings and uploads.  Other than a passion bordering on obsession, and profound interest, I brought ZERO experience to this endeavor.  So everything has been self taught and a work in progress, and I admit a little intimidating as we had big shoes to fill. 

The Zoom's been used primarily for SBD recordings.  However, the local venue has gone through some reconfigurations and upgraded sound, including a digital soundboard, so anymore my SBD recordings are to a USB thumb drive.  What I get is the PA mix as WAV files @ 48/16.  My focus has been on learning the mastering side of recording; so I've upgraded from GoldWave audio editor to Sound Forge 10, and last year I added Ozone 5.  With my tax refund this year I splurged on Tannoy Reveal 402's as my monitors. 

Recently I've been thinking of also doing an AUD recording as a way of complimenting what's missing from the SBD recording.  I've done matrix mixes before using the Zoom as the AUD recorder when the venue had a decent perch I could place the Zoom facing the stage and I got the SBD via the USB thumb drive.  When that perch went away, I just went back to the SBD only.  I can't seem to be content though, so when I'm at the shows anymore my mind is wandering to a railing at the back of the venue where I envision attaching a monopod and hoisting the Zoom up over the crowd pointing at the stage, about 30 feet away and getting that AUD recording to add to my SBD.  That got me thinking then about moving on to external mics in lieu of the Zoom's mics, and that started my crash course on learning about mics which then brought me here.  I've spent many hours reading threads here, but I'd still like to toss out my situation for any thoughts or recommendations on a possible set of mics.

I'll give you some basics of my situation and what my objectives are.  I only record at this one venue and just the one band.  It's a good sized bar that easily fits 400 people.  It has a raised stage, a dance floor, a bar and table area, and vertically the room is spacious at probably 30 feet tall.  At this point I'd be happy with mics that are a noticeable improvement over the Zoom mic's.  I'm on the shallow (budget) end of the pool: $150 - $200 a pair, and of course there's wiggle room.  But lets say I decide to go with the Avantone CK-1's @ $150/mic; I would have to buy one "now" and the second one sometime "later" to make that work.  I'm not adverse to used, and I've been looking at Ebay and now that I joined I see there's a place here for used stuff! 

Initially I would record from the back of the room, about 30' from the stage.  As mentioned, the recording would be used in a matrix to compliment the SBD (PA) mix, and I realize that far back in the room my AUD would be heavy on the PA sound; so not an ideal compliment to my SBD mix.  If my footprint is small enough I would ultimately like to see about setting the mics up on stage to get the stage sound, which would be a greatly improved source to compliment to my SBD mix.  I'll initially use the external mics with the Zoom, but I'm thinking of somewhere down the road buying the Tascam DR-60D as my recorder (and yes, I've read all 20 pages here about the Tascam).   

Sheeesh, I apologize for all the rambling!  If you made it this far without dozing off I'll buy you a beer.  Any insights and/or microphone recommendations would be welcomed and appreciated.  I'm sort of working under the assumption the mics would be small condenser mics.  Also, from my back of the room location, what mic orientation would be better???  I have all sorts of references about spaced, coincident and near coincident techniques, but I have no idea which technique would likely be a better choice that distance from the stage. 

Many thanks!           

[cottle]

avantones wouldn't be a bad choice at all in your price range.  I think its MSTaper who has made a ton of killer recordings with those mics.  I'd also look at a used pair of busman mics.  he uses the same basic mic as the avantone ck-1, but upgrades the electronics inside.  There was a pair in the yard sale recently for like $280, hyper, card and Omni caps.  You should be able to find plenty of samples on archive to see what they sound like.

As far as buying one mic now and one later, that wouldn't be a problem with the avantones.  they don't stereo match their mics, but they claim that quality control is tight enough that it shouldn't matter.  this is the case with many manufacturers, even some of the higher-end ones.  I personally wouldn't pay a high premium for a pair of mics just because their serial numbers are sequential or close.

One thing to consider though, is that you'd need to add a power supply, if not a preamp, to your chain.  I could be wrong, but I don't think the zoom offers 48V phantom power.  You could probably get away with something like a PS-2 for 48V phantom, and go from that into the zoom, without having to use a proper preamp.  depending on what recorder you eventually upgrade to, you may or may not need an external preamp at all.  I haven't read enough about the DR60D to offer any input there.  if you decide to go the PS-2 route, you can probably find one here in the yard sale fairly easily.

welcome aboard!  this place is crammed full of so much information it's not even funny.

[Phil Zone]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169492.0

This is a hell of a rig, that combo at that price is just insane. Those mics are really fantastic

[adrianf74]

Another option is to try and hold out and save a little more scratch and hope something comes up like this:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165793.0

The BSC's are good mics (and that set had all of the caps with it).   If you were looking for something that's available, the Audix M1245's are good little mics as well:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169229.0

The OP there is quite protective of his gear.   In a matrix combination, those mics should sounds really nice in the room you're describing. And they're a little over the $200 limit you'd set for the one mic...

[Ultfris101]

I record in small bars a lot, smaller than what you're describing usually but sometimes bigger and similar.

Where's the "sweet spot"? In the place I frequent the most it's out in the middle of an area where I can't put up a stand. it's a small narrow room. In this case I go to the back of the room where the SBD booth happens to be and setup there. Then I scrap any of the coincident/near coincident patterns and get my mics wider than you'd initially think are a good idea and Point At the Stacks (PAS). Frequently finding as much as 24" works.

So if you can setup at the back in DIN config and your mics are roughly pointed at the PAs then you might be ok, but I suspect you want to widen the split and narrow the angle a bit. In such a situation many people find super cardioids or hyper cardioids preferable but it's as much a matter of taste as anything and influences how much room reverb you pick up.

Even from the back I usually matrix the board feed and aud capture to get some added detail and overcome the amount of audience talking I have to accept being so far from the stage.

Putting mics at stage lip and then matrixing with a board feed can yield excellent results. In that case using cardioids in ORTF or DIN configuration is a safe bet.

The DR-60d is a good choice for an inexpensive four channel recorder to start out with. You can run it off one of the higher capacity cell phone/tablet charging batteries with a customized cable I believe, assuming you can't get AC power. You'll go through batteries like a demon with P48.

There's always a couple pairs of used mics in the yard sale. you could also consider the Naiant X-R microphones (http://www.naiant.com/). Very inexpensive and you can run them off of either p48 or 9v plug-in power with the appropriate cabling. if you're doing a long cable run for any reason stick with P48.

No experience myself but I've heard some positive things about these Swedish mics and they are very inexpensive as well (if I'm doing the conversion properly): http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html

I'd say either save until you can buy a pair of mics together or buy a pair in the current budget range. Having one mic won't be a lot of fun.... But that's just my opinion.

I've only been doing this for a couple years now and have found this site to be an amazing resource. You seem to be on the right track as the DR-60d can work with a lot of different mics and is a very inexpensive entry into four channel recording.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

One thing to consider though, is that you'd need to add a power supply, if not a preamp, to your chain.  I could be wrong, but I don't think the zoom offers 48V phantom power.  You could probably get away with something like a PS-2 for 48V phantom, and go from that into the zoom, without having to use a proper preamp.  depending on what recorder you eventually upgrade to, you may or may not need an external preamp at all.  I haven't read enough about the DR60D to offer any input there.  if you decide to go the PS-2 route, you can probably find one here in the yard sale fairly easily.

The H4N does provide phantom power so he could plug most any phantom powered mic directly into it and record.  Specs and historical testing suggest that, in general, the Zoom's preamps and internal electronics may not be the best but they should be plenty adequate for the time being.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the H4N has a 1/8" input as well as the XLR/TRS inputs so you can run a 4-channel microphone/SBD matrix if you want.  As far as the Tascam DR-60D, I wouldn't call it a lateral move as I think it's a better overall piece of gear than the Zoom (IMHO) but it doesn't offer any additional features or inputs (XLR + 1/8" stereo inputs, no digi-in/out, etc) over the H4N. 

The Avantone, Busman and Studio Projects microphones mentioned here are all great bang-for-the-buck options, solid performers and should fit your criteria nicely.  I'd also suggest looking at Audio-Technica mics which punch far above their weight and can be found used at good prices here in the Yard Sale and on eBay. 

Welcome to the Section, buckster. 

[cottle]

I'd also suggest looking at Audio-Technica mics which punch far above their weight and can be found used at good prices here in the Yard Sale and on eBay. 

Someone actually just posted some AT's in the yard sale, and they're right in OP's price range.

[buckster]

Hey everyone, thanks for the welcome and taking the time to reply.  I don't take it lightly, or for granted, when folks take the time to help someone out like this, so when I say I really appreciate you doing so; I really do appreciate it! 

It's funny, as my microphone crash course had the Avantone's and the SP-C4's as good reputation mics for the $$, and sure enough they both show up in your replies.  Even before posting here I bid on a pair of C4's on eBay just for the halibut, but I didn't actively pursue them, not knowing for sure if that's what I really should get.  I really liked that they both come with different caps.  Admittedly, I'm sort of a sucker for that that kind of flexibility, even if in real world use I would only use one of them. I know the Busman are highly regarded, but the price as new is out of my budget.  Sheeesh, that one link of the BSC1 set on sale from December; I would probably have sprung for that. 

Yeah, I do know going to externals means more gear like the external power supply.  I found some good references for power supplies on the board here.  Heck, I don't even have that monopod I mentioned for holding the Zoom or the mics! So yeah, the overall process here includes getting basic incidentals like the monopod, power supply, stereo bar; at least I already have cables!  Next time I'm at the venue I'll look for an outlet that maybe I can use.

I would be about eight feet behind the sweet spot for the room; it sounds quite good.  When the venue was reconfigured and the sound upgraded I was told the room was "tuned" and the sound did undergo a noticeable improvement from when I last recorded AUD via the Zoom.  Thanks mucho for the mic orientation recommendations for use at the back of the room and if/when I move to the stage.  I really had NO clue what technique would be good where, so that gives me a good head start.     

As I mentioned, the Zoom was a community purchase and in fact it was "borrowed" a few months ago, so I will have to see if I can reel it back in to use again.  Since it looks like I'll be assembling my own gear starting with the mics, I would probably want my own recorder, and that got me looking at the DR-60D as an upgrade from the Zoom and it would be something I would own.  However, I'm happy not to have to buy a recorder right now and will gladly use the Zoom while I get my bearings on what the heck I'm doing!

Thanks again everyone for the recommendations and the head's up on what's on sale - it's all appreciated.   

 

[bombdiggity]

Well given that you have access to the board (and perhaps to the venue's mic cabinet?) couldn't you just fly some ambient mics on or near stage and run those into some channels they're not using?  With power via phantom from the board you could spend more on the mics (and through the board you don't have to worry about time base issues in mix down).  Worth checking to the extent you have the run of the place for this.  Sound people that are used to recording often have a room pair set up for later mix down (or the ability to do so). 

Lots of good recommendations and lots of good mics for this sort of use available.  If it is a "sweetener" rather than the primary source I don't think one has to be terribly picky other than getting something decent with the right pattern for where you're running them (I wouldn't run omnis from the back of a bar).  Even a pair of the halls SM-57's should do well as a room mic in a mixdown.  As a sweetener you may not really need a stereo pair to start with either.  If they have some you can experiment with that might help you get a better feel for how you'd be running them. 

[buckster]

^^^^^^^^

Interesting ideas, never would have occurred to me.  No access to the mic cabinet, but I'm hoping to talk mics in general to the sound guy anyway.  We'll see where that leads.  Yeah, the AUD will just be a sweetener in a matrix mix.  I don't foresee doing an AUD only recording for uploading to the LMA, unless I completely shock myself with this.  Mucho thanks!     

[buckster]

I got my mics - a new pair of Studio Projects C4's via eBay.  It's a complete retail box with the mics, three caps, stereo bar, etc. - $197.   The listing indicated the seller won them in a contest but had no use for them.  They arrived yesterday and everything is in pristine condition.  The box even had that "new car" smell!    No chance to take them out for a spin yet.  Now that I have the mics in hand I'll start assembling all the other gear I need. 

I've been spending so much time here reading so many threads - thanks again for the help and advise here! 

 

[Gutbucket]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.0
^^
This is a simple introduction to the basic relationship between microphone angle and spacing which Ultfris101 was getting at above, designed specifically to make the choice of an appropriate microphone setup easier when recording in bar and similar places.  Just getting a basic understanding of this relationship is one of the best things you can do for making the best of your recording situation.  If you want to dig deeper into the how and why of it, search for threads disucssion the Stereo Zoom.

That table assumes you are making a straight AUD.  If you are mixing that with the SBD, placing the microphones two to four times as wide as what is suggested on the table might work even better.

[buckster]

Yes, I've been all over that thread - and thank you for the work you've put into it.  My initial thinking is to do a straight up DIN (90°, 20cm) with the hyper cards the first time out as sort of my baseline.  I've been playing around with the mics and stereo bar and I'm sort of limited in the neighborhood of the 80°, 28cm configuration under PAS, so maybe my second recording will use that and see if I can hear any difference (improvement).  As I visualize the room the ideal mic angle under PAS is probably closer to 50° - 60°, but I can't get those larger mic distances with what I have right now.   Regardless, I'm looking forward to how it sounds as my only other experience with an AUD recording in that room is with the ZoomH4N internal mics, before the room and stage was reconfigured and the sound upgraded. 

Thanks again.........   

[stevetoney]

You mentioned at the beginning that you're using the mics to matrix with the SBD.  I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but most of the time when you tie into the board, you're simply getting the mix the FOH engineer makes for the room.  If you have a relationship with the engineer and he's willing, get there early during soundcheck and ask him to set up a separate mix bus specifically for you and have him give you your own mix.  That way the mix will be balanced to your output, not to the room.  I recently got a SBD feed which I wanted to matrix with my ambient room recording, but the SBD mix was so outta whack with high end and no low end that I couldn't use it because any time I mixed it in, it made the matrix sound worse than if I didn't use the SBD at all.

Also, I suggest playing around with the amount of each you use in your matrix and judge based on the final sound.  Don't automatically assume that you should use more SBD in the final mixdown than mics.  I've had some matrix recordings that sounded better with a 75/25 where mic were 75% of the matrix and I've had others that were the flip flop.  I tend to err towards more mic just because, being a taper, I'm biased towards the live audience tape and away from the sterility of SBD recordings.

[bombdiggity]

I recently got a SBD feed which I wanted to matrix with my ambient room recording, but the SBD mix was so outta whack with high end and no low end that I couldn't use it because any time I mixed it in, it made the matrix sound worse than if I didn't use the SBD at all.

I had this happen on the summer fest I go to where I just left a recorder running on a stage (due to commitments managing events/wanting to record other sets there). 

The band sets practically no bass at all.  Fortunately the program was mostly acoustic singer-songwriter solo/duo stuff so the majority of the sets are OK, but where a band was involved the sound was way off.  I did not notice this with the prior year so maybe they had a big bass amp on stage this year or something.   

I tend to trust my mics a lot more than a board feed (even with an independent mix) but sometimes you have to take your chances...