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DF81

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[List] Surround Sound Microphones
« on: October 20, 2014, 01:54:04 AM »
List of surround sound microphones. 

-Soundfield SPS200
-Core Sound Tetramic
-Sanken WMS-5
-Holophone H2 Pro 5.1 and 7.1
-Holophone H3
-DPA 5100
-Schoeps ORTF Surround
-Josephson C700S
-Milab SRND-360
-Sennheiser ESFERA
-Soundfield ST 450 II
-Soundfield DSF-1
-Soundfield SPS422B
-Soundfield DSF-B
-Soundfield DSF-2
-Soundfield DSF-3
-Brahma Ambisonics Microphone (this is a low cost one)
-Schoeps KFM360
-Trinnov SRP
-Eigenmike
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 12:17:09 PM by DF81 »

Offline mysticeyes

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 08:29:46 AM »
Sennheiser ESFERA
Milab SRND-360

Offline fotoralf.be

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 05:29:02 PM »
Schoepsfield
Schoeps KFM Surround
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 05:35:19 PM by fotoralf.be »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 01:16:38 PM »
And just like recording 2-channel stereo, don't overlook the often best option of using a number of 'standard' singe channel microphones arranged in an appropriate configuration.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 10:28:23 PM »
I agree with gutbucket. I realize that the purpose of this thread was just to make a list of surround microphones. But the capsules of any such microphone have to be fairly close together--and that imposes a severe limitation as far as the success of the surround recording goes.

With greater spacings among capsules or microphones, many other surround recording techniques are possible--and those techniques are often the ones preferred by engineers who do this kind of work. The point of surround recording is to offer both imaging AND envelopment, without sacrificing either quality to the other.

I don't mean to make propaganda for Schoeps here, but I did translate a brochure for them some years ago which deals with this subject area, and can be downloaded from their Web site for free. It's on the page http://www.schoeps.de/en/downloads/catalogues_and_brochures; it's the "Surround brochure" which is the last item in the group marked "User brochures". It shows a number of surround recording techniques which can be implemented with any high-quality, small, single-channel microphones that are uniform in directional pattern and frequency response; special "surround" microphones are definitely not required.

Just to explain one thing that might not be sufficiently clear, though: Some of the microphone arrangements in the brochure are designed only for capturing ambience, and are meant to be placed at a distance from the pair of main microphones that are picking up the front channels.

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 11:03:53 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 09:43:40 AM »
List of surround sound microphones. 

-Soundfield SPS200
-Core Sound Tetramic
-Sanken WMS-5
-Holophone H2 Pro 5.1 and 7.1
-Holophone H3
-DPA 5100
-Schoeps ORTF Surround
-Josephson C700S
-Milab SRND-360
-Sennheiser ESFERA

Also:-

Soundfield ST 450 II
Soundfield DSF-1
Soundfield SPS422B
Soundfield DSF-B
Soundfield DSF-2
Soundfield DSF-3
Brahma Ambisonics Microphone (this is a low cost one)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 05:13:18 PM »
Below are a number of different approaches using standard microphones for surround recording of music, all of which use space between the microphones, which I consider superior for surround recording and playback of music than a coincident setup. 

All of these are main-channel multi-microphone arrays using normal microphones, akin to using a stereo-pair for recording two-channel, in contrast to building a stereo or surround mix from individual panned spot or close microphones:

• Williams MMAD (Multi-Microphone Array Design: extension of the 2-channel Stereo Zoom approach to 3/4/5/6/7 channels, using identical microphones of various polar patterns, optimized for psychoacoustically correct imaging across each segment around the array, and linking between all segments)
• OCT + surround mics (Optimum Cardioid Triangle: optimized for channel separation across the front three channels, one forward facing cardioid + two sideways facing spaced supercardioids for L/C/R, + surround channel mics)
• 5 mics evenly spaced in a row (David Greisinger's technique. 3 spaced across the center as L/C/R, 2 flanking as surround channels, using omnis or forward-facing directionals as appropriate. Works nicely across a stage-lip)
• Decca Tree + surround mics (3 spaced omnis in a traditional triangular Decca-tree formation + surround channel mics)
• Fukada-Tree (basically a variant of Decca tree with the center mic less forward + outriggers)
• INA-5 (a star-like semi-near-spaced arrangement of 5 cardioids with the L/R pair facing to the sides)

There are other techniques I've not listed which are not as suitable for music, which include some common ones that are more appropriate for recording location ambiances for television, film and radio production work.  Although not as suitable for the main (L/C/R) channel pickup for music recording, those techniques could be used for ambient sound pickup for the surround channels.  There are also a number of techniques for arranging additional ambiance microphones behind the main microphones, which are sometimes combined with the techniques listed above, but I they complicate these basic setups for incremental gain and I haven't felt them necessary, practical or worth the additional hassle.

I’ve used the first four listed above.  The Williams MMAD is perhaps my favorite when arranged properly but takes a more fiddling and space to setup. It has worked great on-stage in a good room.  I can run variants of OCT from a single stand and that has worked really well for outdoor recording FOB.  It’s mostly what I do currently.  The Gresinger technique is easy to arrange and setup across the front stage-lip since the microphones are all in a line, and sounds big and spaced omni-like with good coverage and imaging up close.  That's is the way I run the ~2m wide-spaced omnis as surround channels in my outdoor OCT setups to keep everything manageable on a single stand.  Decca tree + surround takes as much or more floor space than MMAD setups (it’s more or less a loose MMAD setup using omnis) but is also very forgiving without worrying too much about setup specifics.  It’s basically another improved version of a spaced omni pair.


In contrast to these techniques, most all the microphones listed in this thread are coincident-capsule designs, with a few exceptions.  The near-spaced exceptions are the various Holophones (near-spaced baffled-omni designs) which IMO appear convenient to use but do not measure or perform very well for music recording, confirmed by samples I’ve heard; the DPA 5100 (coincident directional L/C/R microphones + baffled omnis); and the Schoeps ORTF Surround setup (limited to 4-channel output, but uses their excellent capsules and expands ORTF to quad).

I’ll list a few other esoteric surround microphones in a following post since that’s the focus of the thread, but first I wanted to mention these spaced setups using traditional microphones which are usually much better for actual surround recording and playback of music than any coincident technique, at least over more than 4 playback channels.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 11:26:14 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2014, 06:32:15 PM »
Here are a few interesting but rather esoteric surround recording microphones (actually recording systems) which haven't been mentioned yet-

Schoeps KFM360
Trinnov SRP
Eigenmike

The Schoeps KFM360 is a surround variant of their KFM8 sphere-baffled omni stereo microphone + coincident forward facing fig-8s and M/S techniques, with output from a dedicated matrix box.  It produces a stereo or 4-channel output optimally but has the option of a 5th, center-channel output which is simply a mix of L+R -3dB.

The Trinnov SRP is an unusual high-order-ambisonic (HOA) system using an array of 8 near-spaced omnis and a dedicated processor doing heavy matrix ambisonic stuff to derive a 5-channel output.  The output consists of virtual horizontal-only coincident patterns up to 3rd order (which basically means tighter, more focused patterns than a supercardioid, the “tightest, most directional” 1st order pattern). The polar patterns are appropriately asymmetrical, providing the correct overlap between channels for playback over a standard, asymmetric 5 channel playback arrangement. Typically it uses high quality Schoeps or DPA omnis in the array.  It is unusual in that the microphone setup is an unbaffled spaced array, yet the system outputs coincident microphone patterns from a single-point in space.

The Eigenmike is a HOA system using 32 miniature omnis enbedded in a small rigid sphere and beam-forming calculation techniques producing up to 16  3rd order virtual microphone patterns pointing any direction.  It’s not really intended for music recording however and is more suitable for research, acoustics, teleconferencing, etc.

The Trinnov and the Eigenmike are the only coincident-output microphones listed here which are capable of generating polar patterns greater than 1st order.  That means they at least offer a potential to overcome the inherent limitation of trying to derive more than 4 horizontal channels from a coincident 1st order microphone, resulting in too much overlap between patterns producing excessive cross-talk.  The problem is basically analogous to stereo recording using a pair of cardioids in X/Y without enough angle between them.  The Trinnov SRP has good potential for coincident surround music recording a classical location recording engineer over on GS has apparently used one numerous times, found it to work well and reported that the 5-channel output sounded very good, FWIW.  It's still limited to coincident mic'ing arrangements though.


All the mics in this thread are capable of generating some form of multi-channel surround output. However, the output of even the best will degrade from excessive cross-talk when attempting to produce more than 4-channels and are typically better used for producing quality coincident 2-channel stereo output rather than 5 or 7 channel surround.

The simple, easy, less costly and better-sounding option for recording music intended for multi-channel surround playback is using recording setups which leverage not only the directionality of the microphone capsules, but also space the microphones apart appropriately.  A single-point surround microphone places issues of convenience higher than the quality of the surround sound it produces.  That's an entirely appropriate trade-off for some users, but can be an expensive one in terms of cost and sound quality.

[edit- oops, missed that fotoralf had already listed the Schoeps KFM360]
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 08:46:22 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fotoralf.be

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2014, 02:47:37 PM »
Never mind, Gutbucket. :-)

I've just been wondering what has happened to the "Schoepsfield". I'm rather sure this was a contraption that went beyond their Double-MS system but haven't been able to find any reference, neither on their website nor with Google.

BTW, is there anybody in Western Europe who wants to get rid of his Tetramic? Pity they don't have a European distributor.

Ralf
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 02:49:55 PM by fotoralf.be »
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2014, 03:30:47 PM »
I have been checking out the Schoeps ORTF surround setup for many years now, and I'm tempted to try it this winter/spring! It would be mk41/Dina pointing towards the stage, and mk4/ORTF facing towards the crowd. Do you guys think that it would be worth it? Since it wouldn't be Schoeps true double ORTF, and I'd be using supercardioids and cards, instead of just cards?!?!?!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2014, 04:14:52 PM »
Hi Ralf,  I'm totally ignorant on the Schoepsfield.  Perhaps DSatz is aware of it and can tell us something more about it.

Bean, that might work.  The advantages are that it's simple to try as it's just two standard setups facing opposite directions and it is doable from a single stand.  What's your intention though? Quadraphonic playback or adding the rear facing pair for control over mixing audience/venue ambience into your stereo recording?  There may be more appropriate options for either that you could do.  We should probably discuss both that and/or the best way to go about doing it the way you've envisioned in a new thread. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2014, 09:42:20 PM »
Sorry, I have no idea what people mean by "Schoepsfield"; Schoeps has never made an Ambisonic-type microphone.

Maybe people are thinking of the (now discontinued) KFM 360 system? It was a sphere-based arrangement that Jerry Bruck came up with. Two pressure transducers were embedded in the surface of the sphere, a pair of figure-8 capsules nestled alongside them, and everything was connected to an outboard signal processor. The surround parameters could be chosen while recording or in post-production.

The two pages about this system that were in Schoeps' Catalog 5 (2006) are attached here as GIF files.
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 06:51:21 AM »
This is getting to be a very interesting thread - though it would be nice if the OP could add the other surround microphones that people add to the list into the first post.  ;)


Gutbuckets multimic. surround posts are very interesting - thanks Gutbucket.

This is what the INA 5 array he mentioned looks like:-



and this is the Trinnov:-



« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:54:33 AM by John Willett »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 12:08:22 PM »
Thanks for the KFM 360 pages and info DSatz.  Back in '06/'07 I was seriously scheming about ways to emulate the KFM 360 setup, substituting my own head the way many members here run miniature omnis just over or in front of their ears.  An alternate concept was 4 or 5 omnis arranged around the periphery of a hat as later used in the Holophone.  Ended up devising other means.

I've seen the KFM 360 in use a few times in a couple different venues.  Here are a couple photos I took of one in 2009, in use with a spaced pair of omnis-






Thanks for the kind words John.  Here's that Trinnov array mount loaded with Schoeps omnis and with DPA omnis-



Here's the Eigenmike-

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: [List] Surround Sound Microphones
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2014, 08:39:55 PM »
This thread is very interesting! Keep em coming fellas!!!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

 

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