Thinking about taking the Schoeps or AKG actives plunge. Best options?

[Scooter123]

Not having the mikes in a hat will limit the situations you'll be able to stealth in.  Van Morrison, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac and other bands have roving security folks looking for tapers and will gleefully toss you out.  I would not be able to wear mk21s on my glasses or clipped to a collar.  They are just too big. 

If you are looking for glasses and collar type mounting mikes, one of the first mikes I would look at would be DPA Omnis.  They are super tiny and clip right to your (button down) collar, are very inconspicuous, and only require a few volts to power them.  These mikes shine in close in stack taping. 

I've owned a pair and loved them, although the Schoeps smoked them in most locations. 

[(Evan)]

Not having the mikes in a hat will limit the situations you'll be able to stealth in.  Van Morrison, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac and other bands have roving security folks looking for tapers and will gleefully toss you out.  I would not be able to wear mk21s on my glasses or clipped to a collar.  They are just too big. 

If you are looking for glasses and collar type mounting mikes, one of the first mikes I would look at would be DPA Omnis.  They are super tiny and clip right to your (button down) collar, are very inconspicuous, and only require a few volts to power them.  These mikes shine in close in stack taping. 

I've owned a pair and loved them, although the Schoeps smoked them in most locations.

As I keep saying, I am ONLY stealthing with these in completely dark theaters during musical theatre performances. That's all I'm interested in. I don't tape concerts. Ushers at musical theatre events don't look for tapers.

[acidjack]

Not having the mikes in a hat will limit the situations you'll be able to stealth in.  Van Morrison, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac and other bands have roving security folks looking for tapers and will gleefully toss you out.  I would not be able to wear mk21s on my glasses or clipped to a collar.  They are just too big. 

If you are looking for glasses and collar type mounting mikes, one of the first mikes I would look at would be DPA Omnis.  They are super tiny and clip right to your (button down) collar, are very inconspicuous, and only require a few volts to power them.  These mikes shine in close in stack taping. 

I've owned a pair and loved them, although the Schoeps smoked them in most locations.

As I keep saying, I am ONLY stealthing with these in completely dark theaters during musical theatre performances. That's all I'm interested in. I don't tape concerts. Ushers at musical theatre events don't look for tapers.

Evan, for reasons already stated, I don't think your proposed approach makes any sense. But do what you think is best for you. You've heard a lot of reasons why what you want to do absolutely will not work. I would listen to them.

[stevetoney]

FWIW, I didn't have any luck running 21s away from the stage lip.  The sound got blurred and overall just wasn't up to the sound quality standards I was used to with MK4 's.  I'm not sure I made notes in my recordings, but I used approximately NOS spacing and was PAS.  Since I don't do stage lip recording anymore, I had no further use for MK21s so I sold them after this experience.  To listen to some results for yourself, search live music archive...summer camp + tonedeaf + mk21.  Perhaps a head baffle would make a difference in stealth mode...not sure since I haven't tried.

Just offering that up as my experience, though for full disclosure I didn't try more than about ten times taping away from the stage with 21s before giving up on them for that recording scenario.

[(Evan)]

Evan, for reasons already stated, I don't think your proposed approach makes any sense. But do what you think is best for you. You've heard a lot of reasons why what you want to do absolutely will not work. I would listen to them.

Such as? I haven't seen a single post saying that my approach doesn't make any sense until yours. Only that the results from moving to larger mics would be negligible.

What I have seen is several posts saying that the mics are too big to stealth with without a hat, which is not a question I have ever asked. I have been stealthing for 14 years, and I have stealthed with larger mics than these. It's not an issue for what I do. I'm a little confused as to why people are trying to help me solve a problem that I do not have.

What I am trying to find is the best possible microphone set, that can be used with the method that has worked extremely well for me over the past 14 years. I'm simply curious as to whether or not there is a way to improve these already great results.

FWIW, I didn't have any luck running 21s away from the stage lip.  The sound got blurred and overall just wasn't up to the sound quality standards I was used to with MK4 's.  I'm not sure I made notes in my recordings, but I used approximately NOS spacing and was PAS.  Since I don't do stage lip recording anymore, I had no further use for MK21s so I sold them after this experience.  To listen to some results for yourself, search live music archive...summer camp + tonedeaf + mk21.  Perhaps a head baffle would make a difference in stealth mode...not sure since I haven't tried.

Just offering that up as my experience, though for full disclosure I didn't try more than about ten times taping away from the stage with 21s before giving up on them for that recording scenario.

Interesting, thanks. Unfortunately the CMRs and MK21's would be a little pricey to purchase without knowing beforehand whether they provide good results with a head baffle or not. Would it be silly to assume that since the AT853 sub-cards work well this way, the MK21s should as well? They are both sub-cards after all. If only I could locate a loaner set to try this out...

I'm definitely considering the DPA 4060's as well. My only reason for asking about the MK21's is that if they WOULD work in my situation, then I would also be less limited in using them in other non-stealthing situations. I don't see myself having any other use for the DPA's aside from stealthing. So the MK21 would be more versatile for me. But if they won't work with a head baffle, then they aren't worth it.

[stevetoney]

So the MK21 would be more versatile for me. But if they won't work with a head baffle, then they aren't worth it.

Sorry.  I didn't really want to throw any more uncertainty into your decision, but then I did want to share my experience.  I know it's not an easy decision to make.  I'm not trying to offer difference of opinion just to be different, although I have at times been one to see things differently than a lot of people (I prefer to think of myself as a critical thinker ).  It's just that I really didn't have much luck with my mk21 experience when I backed away from the stage.

I can't comment on whether there's an analogy with at853 subcards. 

[F.O.Bean]

I think you could find a used pair of mk21s relatively easy, so if you bought them and didn't like the results you got, you could easily resell them without losing a dime Same goes for used CMRs! I personally, think that the mk21s would work great for what you do, as long as you aren't VERY far from the sound source. BTW, how far from the sound source do you usually record from? If its more than maybe like 75'-100', then Id probably stay away from the mk21s, as they really do shine pretty close to the source

Here's what the mk21s sound like DFC/FOB, about 40'-50' away from the stage! Granted I know its not the musical style you record, but its just to give you an idea what they sound like!

https://archive.org/details/moe2013-05-24.mk21.lb.m10.flac16

[(Evan)]

I think you could find a used pair of mk21s relatively easy, so if you bought them and didn't like the results you got, you could easily resell them without losing a dime Same goes for used CMRs! I personally, think that the mk21s would work great for what you do, as long as you aren't VERY far from the sound source. BTW, how far from the sound source do you usually record from? If its more than maybe like 75'-100', then Id probably stay away from the mk21s, as they really do shine pretty close to the source

Here's what the mk21s sound like DFC/FOB, about 40'-50' away from the stage! Granted I know its not the musical style you record, but its just to give you an idea what they sound like!

https://archive.org/details/moe2013-05-24.mk21.lb.m10.flac16

Where I sit really varies from show to show...though I usually am pretty successful in securing seats close to the stage.

The MK21s do sound great. I've listened to a lot of recordings made with them, but none with a baffle of any type 

[F.O.Bean]

I think you could find a used pair of mk21s relatively easy, so if you bought them and didn't like the results you got, you could easily resell them without losing a dime Same goes for used CMRs! I personally, think that the mk21s would work great for what you do, as long as you aren't VERY far from the sound source. BTW, how far from the sound source do you usually record from? If its more than maybe like 75'-100', then Id probably stay away from the mk21s, as they really do shine pretty close to the source

Here's what the mk21s sound like DFC/FOB, about 40'-50' away from the stage! Granted I know its not the musical style you record, but its just to give you an idea what they sound like!

https://archive.org/details/moe2013-05-24.mk21.lb.m10.flac16

Where I sit really varies from show to show...though I usually am pretty successful in securing seats close to the stage.

The MK21s do sound great. I've listened to a lot of recordings made with them, but none with a baffle of any type 

I highly doubt there are ANY tapes with the mk21s being baffled, so you'd probably have to be the guinea pig in that regard

[acidjack]

What I have seen is several posts saying that the mics are too big to stealth with without a hat, which is not a question I have ever asked. I have been stealthing for 14 years, and I have stealthed with larger mics than these. It's not an issue for what I do. I'm a little confused as to why people are trying to help me solve a problem that I do not have.

You said you wanted to buy Schoeps or AKG actives so you can tape musical theater concerts (for which the sound emanates almost entirely from an orchestra pit and/or PA system). You said you don't want to use a hat, and you can stealth with any size mics. That you record musical theater is mostly irrelevant except that (a) there is no value to "onstage" recording like there might be with something like, say, jazz and (b) presumably your seats are always assigned, and probably not always terribly close.

If you don't record onstage, the MK21 is a fool's errand, or at least, certainly not optimal in most situations. That's also my opinion of an omnidirectional mic, unless your theaters you record in are all acoustically perfect.

I guess when I think of musical theater I think of New York, and I am pretty damn sure if I went into a venue in NYC with Schoeps taped to my glasses I would get caught. If you're putting the mics under your shirt or in a pocket or something, then there's really no point having a further discussion, as that's not a valid way to use a high-end microphone to do anything. I disagree that ushers in NYC venues won't notice somebody with microphones on their head (or a video camera, since that's the most common problem they have), but perhaps it is different where you live.

If in fact you can magically stealth with anything of any size, then you may as well buy AKG 414s or better yet, Neumann U89s. They have outstanding sonic characteristics and of course can be switched to whatever pattern you want. Certainly I've heard of people taping rock concerts stealth with such mics; I wouldn't want to go to that trouble, but if your fourteen years of experience makes you so confident, then by all means, go for it.

[(Evan)]

OK, then it sounds like you have all the answers then. I'm just not sure what you're asking here. If you can stealth with any size gear, get some Neumann U89s. They have every pattern, and they sound amazing. Good luck. ::

If I had all the answers, I wouldn't have made a topic here asking questions. You're giving me answers to questions I didn't ask. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. Is there a reading comprehension problem here? It's like telling the doctor you have an earache, and being prescribed Viagra.

And when did I say I could stealth with any size gear? Again...something is not adding up here reading comprehension-wise.

Thanks to the other posters who have been helpful both here and through private messaging.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

In regards to a few of your queries above, Evan:

When you refer to using your head as a microphone baffle, your head is essentially acting as a Jecklin disk.  That's a proven setup and technique for omni microphones and I don't see why it couldn't be done with sub- and wide-cards.  Most stealth tapers inadvertently do so anyway when they head-mount their mics. 

The DPA 4060s are worth considering but how would you use the MK21s in non-stealthing situations that you wouldn't use the DPAs for?  The 4060s are excellent omni mics that, while tiny, can certainly be used for situations other than stealthing.  They are both great microphones but it's a matter of getting the right tool for the job. 

[chk]

if you are in acoustically good to excellent sounding rooms with minimal to no crowd noise, and you are happy with the omni sound you already have....and simply looking to upgrade your gear, i think your best bet is the DPA omnis (great sound, tiny size, easy to power, proven).  however, if you can stomach a larger capsule, you go the active cables> Schoeps MK2S or AKG omni route...both of the latter having the added ability to run the rig with different capsules, with the AKGs being considerably less expensive than the DPA or Schoeps, with a proven sound that you can get a lot of samples to listen to.

the perspective of many of the replies here is louder concert taping with chatty/loud audiences, problems you don't have (if i understand your original post).  given this, i would argue the Schoeps MK21 caps would do fine.  a little more directionality/imaging than the omni sound you already like, but slightly harder to position properly if they are in a hat.  as with anything, there are pros/cons and compromises. 

good luck

[stevetoney]

I'm mostly a PAS taper running my mics on a stand, but I've never seen anyone running their directional mics with a baffle on a stand.  Yet lots of people in this thread seem to be OK with it for stealthing.  Weird.

[stevetoney]

^ For sure.  The point of my comment wasn't necessarily to say it's 'illegal' to baffle directional mics, but more that tapers are traditionalists about some taping 'standards', such as not using baffles on a stand with directional mics, until the discussion morphs to another situation.  If I was in a taper section and used a baffle between my cardioids, you know that literally everyone would say how strange it is.