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Author Topic: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try  (Read 5175 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try
« on: March 30, 2016, 05:37:24 PM »
Was messing around with setups on Michael Williams' multi channel microphone array design website and clicked over on the good old 2-channel arrays (the original Stereo Zoom stuff) and pulled up the Stereo Zoom table for figure 8s (linked below).   I remember thinking about near-spaced figure-8s but only really trying Blumlein.  Then I remembered all the LD mics (many switchable to fig 8 ) I see on standard narrow-width mic bars (can't space those mics much anyway, they are big and heavy), often setup inside the SBD cage for protection, but not in optimal configurations (like switched to omni pattern, but only 10" apart or whatever).  Looking at the figure-8 table for a while, I realized that figure 8's would be an excellent solution for tapers using standard mic bars which aren't wide enough to space the mics sufficiently as recommended by the improved PAS with optimal spacing table which is intended for cardioids or supercards (threads on Improved PAS are here, and here).

Here's the basic principle in a nutshell-
For a given PAS angle between mics, the more directional the pickup pattern is, the less spacing is required between them for a decent stereo image.

Omnis require the most spacing, figure-8s require the least. The progression of first-order microphone directional patterns, which are simply points along the directional sensitivity continuum, goes like this: omni-subcardioid-widecardioid-cardioid-supercardioid-hypercardioid-figure-8.  So when you aren't capable of spacing the mics much, and want to use a minimal angle between them to Point At Stacks, patterns closer to the fig-8 end of the directional spectrum are a wise choice.  Why not leverage that as far as possible and get a great stereo-image? Especially outdoors where there is no room verb or back wall reflection?  Using 8's allows for the least amount of spacing required between the mics of all mic patterns.

Note that switched to fig-8 pattern, the mics will exhibit more low bass rolloff, but that bit of built-in low-cut may be a good thing for taming overactive subwoofer boom.

So break out those ADK TL's, ADK 414's, or the big Neumanns and and give this a try at an outdoor fest if you are setup at the board or stuck behind it and can't get very FOB.  You'll get reach, you'll get improved stereo imaging, you'll get something sort of Blumlein-like in it's "airiness" but with a narrower SRA window focusing on the stage, which will produce a wider, less monophonic stereo image on playback.

http://www.mmad.info/MAD/2%20Ch/SRA%20Bi.pdf

^ Example: mics spaced 7" (~18cm) apart, which is totally doable with common mic bars, and angled ~50 degrees apart, which is probably a typical PAS angle from back there, provides a Stereo Recording Angle of a bit more than +/- 45 degrees or 90 degrees total.  Figure-8 nulls maximally reduce audience noise pickup from below and greatly off to the sides.   SBD is in back where the rear lobes point, and those lobes provide a welcome diffuse ambience.  Win!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 01:22:55 PM by Gutbucket »
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made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 07:36:35 AM »
I wish I had [2] mk8's, because I would DEF try that outdoors :) Or run Blumlein FOB/DFC :)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman ->
Linum G2 Bax & Westone Epic MMCX Cables ->
Westone UM Pro 30 (V1 & V2) IEM's ->
Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips
OR
Sony Walkman -> FiiO E11K HP Amp ->
Optoma NuForce Primo 8 & EDC IEM's ->
Comply Isolation+ Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 10:13:47 AM »
Should work nicely, although I doubt very many tapers have two mk8 on hand.  However, a good number of tapers use LDCs with switchable patterns that include fig-8 and cannot easily space them further apart than a standard near-spaced micbar.  I imagine this will be most applicable for them.

And yes, one way of thinking of this is a modification of Blumlein (figure 8s arranged in coincident X/Y with a 90 degree angle between them) by using a bit less angle and a bit more spacing between the mics.  That should help it to work better from a position further back than straight Blumlein.

It won't sound exactly like Blumlien, probably sounding something like a near-spaced config. And it won't have the same omnidirectional 360 degree pickup sensitivity as Blumlein due to the narrower included angle between mics.  Instead it will have more of a forward facing fat8 shape without the deep side nulls, sort of a fat oval, or a forward pointing "jelly bean" if you like  ;) with less sensitivity to the sides.

Because the directional sensitivity of the forward lobe of a figure 8 is tighter than any other pattern as a source moves from on-axis to 90 degrees off-axis, that allows for the use of less angle and spacing of the stereo pair than using any other pickup pattern, while still getting sufficient difference information between the two channels. 
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2016, 10:56:20 AM »
So you would point the 0* left lobe facing forward at an angle like a front address capsule like my mk4x, but using the side-address side of then caps, with the rear lobe facing behind the mic setup pointing towards the SBD area, like pointing hypers/supercards PAS?? I'm trying to picture this in my head lol ;D

Sorry if that's really confusing GB
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman ->
Linum G2 Bax & Westone Epic MMCX Cables ->
Westone UM Pro 30 (V1 & V2) IEM's ->
Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips
OR
Sony Walkman -> FiiO E11K HP Amp ->
Optoma NuForce Primo 8 & EDC IEM's ->
Comply Isolation+ Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 11:37:55 AM »
Exactly.  Figure-8's are "side-address" type mics.  They have one positive polarity side and one negative polarity side just like a supercard or hypercard does, the primary difference is that the front/back lobes of an 8 are the identical in size and shape, symmetrical front/back, where as with a supercard or hypercard they are different sizes, larger in front than in back.  With the Schoeps mk8 I think the positive polarity side is the one marked with the '0' (the side you'd point towards the left if using it as the Side mic in a Mid/Side setup).

Think of this as PAS using two mk8 in place of two side-address mk41v, with the positive polarity lobes of both figure-8's facing forwards.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 02:37:29 PM »
Hmm, wide mic bar vs. two mk8sand two CMC6 bodies.   And the bill comes to ....ouch.   ;D

Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2016, 02:59:55 PM »
I ran a "Faulkner Array" with my Milab DC-196's at 20cm in figure 8 pointed straight ahead,  at DSO outdoors at the Cuthbert Amphitheater and was impressed how it sounded especially in comparison to Phish at  the Les Schawb in July that I ran Blumlein.
I'd do it again in the right outdoor venue.
see:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TonyFaulknerPhasedArray01Engl.pdf
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 03:02:13 PM by ArchivalAudio »
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

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Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  • Line Audio CM3's
PreAmps:  Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox • Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: MixPre 10T •  Tascam DR-100 mkIII • Sony M-10 

macMini 3Ghz i7 16GB Ram 500GB SSD • MOTU UltraLite
Naiant MSH-2's •   TOA K1's • Beyer TG 153c's •  AT 853 (4.7kmod darktrain) • Countryman B3's (1 k mod)  + other assorted mics

Offline Bruce Watson

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2016, 05:00:18 PM »
I ran a "Faulkner Array" with my Milab DC-196's at 20cm in figure 8 pointed straight ahead...

Yep, that Tony Faukner guy is pretty cleaver. AB-8s works really well in spaces with reverb problems like stone shoebox churches that are just a bit too small, so the reflections from the walls/ceiling are just a little too quick, and/or too loud. Calms them right down. I'm not surprised it works in the opposite -- outside where there are basically no reflections. Point them down a bit so the rear node is pointing up toward the sky, and you essentially loose the rear node entirely. Unless a plane flies by.  ::)

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 10:14:58 PM »
I wish I had [2] mk8's, because I would DEF try that outdoors :) Or run Blumlein FOB/DFC :)

You get close to blumlein with an mk8 and one of your mk41 as M/S which your tascam can decode on the fly.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 11:19:15 PM »
Yep.

As long as you're okay with a slightly wider recording angle / narrower playback stage and with sharp coincident imaging as opposed to near-spaced phase goodness.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline down2earthlandscaper

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2016, 04:15:46 AM »
I ran a "Faulkner Array" with my Milab DC-196's at 20cm in figure 8 pointed straight ahead,  at DSO outdoors at the Cuthbert Amphitheater and was impressed how it sounded especially in comparison to Phish at  the Les Schawb in July that I ran Blumlein.
I'd do it again in the right outdoor venue.
see:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TonyFaulknerPhasedArray01Engl.pdf

I'd still love to hear how your recording turned out, Ian :)
Is it posted anywhere? Dropbox link, perhaps?
Mics: CA-14(cards & omnis) and CA-11(cards & omnis) ; AT853's(cards, hypers, mini shotguns); Busman BSC-1 (cards, hypers, omnis)
Nakamichi CM300's (CP-1,2,3,4) Nakamichi CM700's (cards, omnis)
Tascam PE-120's (cards, omnis) Peluso CEMC-6 (cards and subcards)
DPA 4061's DPA 4022's
Preamps: CA-9100; Naiant Tinybox (12v/48v + PIP 8V); Naiant Littlebox;
DPA MPS6030; Sound Device Mix Pre-D
Decks: Sony PCM M10; Edirol R-4; Zoom H6; Marantz PMD-661; Sound Devices 722

Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2016, 03:18:40 PM »
I ran a "Faulkner Array" with my Milab DC-196's at 20cm in figure 8 pointed straight ahead,  at DSO outdoors at the Cuthbert Amphitheater and was impressed how it sounded especially in comparison to Phish at  the Les Schawb in July that I ran Blumlein.
I'd do it again in the right outdoor venue.
see:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TonyFaulknerPhasedArray01Engl.pdf

I'd still love to hear how your recording turned out, Ian :)
Is it posted anywhere? Dropbox link, perhaps?

No It's still not posted... I will try soon to up it to LMA .... I'm slacking too many other things to share  where I was the only taper.
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

https://www.facebook.com/ArchivalAudio/

Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  • Line Audio CM3's
PreAmps:  Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox • Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: MixPre 10T •  Tascam DR-100 mkIII • Sony M-10 

macMini 3Ghz i7 16GB Ram 500GB SSD • MOTU UltraLite
Naiant MSH-2's •   TOA K1's • Beyer TG 153c's •  AT 853 (4.7kmod darktrain) • Countryman B3's (1 k mod)  + other assorted mics

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2016, 04:20:23 AM »
Exactly.  Figure-8's are "side-address" type mics.  They have one positive polarity side and one negative polarity side just like a supercard or hypercard does, the primary difference is that the front/back lobes of an 8 are the identical in size and shape, symmetrical front/back, where as with a supercard or hypercard they are different sizes, larger in front than in back.  With the Schoeps mk8 I think the positive polarity side is the one marked with the '0' (the side you'd point towards the left if using it as the Side mic in a Mid/Side setup).

Think of this as PAS using two mk8 in place of two side-address mk41v, with the positive polarity lobes of both figure-8's facing forwards.

Gotcha, thanks GB! So the 0* lobe[Red Dot] of an mk8 would face FORWARDS towards the stage just like an MK4v/MK41V? Check, now I got it 8) Now I just need [2] mk8's :P ;D

Hmm, wide mic bar vs. two mk8sand two CMC6 bodies.   And the bill comes to ....ouch.   ;D

Actually, I just need the [2] mk8's, that's all ;D

I wish I had [2] mk8's, because I would DEF try that outdoors :) Or run Blumlein FOB/DFC :)

You get close to blumlein with an mk8 and one of your mk41 as M/S which your tascam can decode on the fly.

True that Noah 8) Id probably decode that in post in WaveLab 6 though, but DEF badass that the 70d can do the on-the-fly MS decoding on both stereo channels[1/2 and 3/4] :)

I ran a "Faulkner Array" with my Milab DC-196's at 20cm in figure 8 pointed straight ahead,  at DSO outdoors at the Cuthbert Amphitheater and was impressed how it sounded especially in comparison to Phish at  the Les Schawb in July that I ran Blumlein.
I'd do it again in the right outdoor venue.
see:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TonyFaulknerPhasedArray01Engl.pdf

I'd still love to hear how your recording turned out, Ian :)
Is it posted anywhere? Dropbox link, perhaps?

No It's still not posted... I will try soon to up it to LMA .... I'm slacking too many other things to share  where I was the only taper.

Id LOVE to hear this too 8)
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps & NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

Portable Playback Rigs:
Sony NW-A35 Walkman ->
Linum G2 Bax & Westone Epic MMCX Cables ->
Westone UM Pro 30 (V1 & V2) IEM's ->
Comply Isolation+ Memory Foam Tips
OR
Sony Walkman -> FiiO E11K HP Amp ->
Optoma NuForce Primo 8 & EDC IEM's ->
Comply Isolation+ Tips

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline jazzgtrl4

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2016, 03:37:56 PM »
hi
thanks

i might try this with my 414s this weekend at Huck Finn Jubilee, outdoor bluegrass fest. ill let you know what happens if i do.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Don't have a wide mic bar? Give PAS with figure 8's a try outdoors
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2016, 04:27:04 PM »
Cool.  Please post your thoughts about it here.  The greater bottom end roll-off inherent with figure 8's shouldn't be any drawback at all for that music genera, but sensitivity to wind-noise could be an issue if it's breezy, so dust off your fatty windscreens and/or miniature fur muumuus so you're sufficiently prepared.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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