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Author Topic: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...  (Read 38100 times)

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Offline H₂O

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #150 on: January 15, 2020, 11:13:26 AM »
Sonosax does not limit the dynamic range on non-recorder devices such as the M2D2 or AD8+.
The patent only applies to a Recorder.
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Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #151 on: January 15, 2020, 11:14:15 AM »
A question about the SX-M2D2 dynamic range. I read that the SX-R4+ dynamic range of 135dB is limited in the USA version to 114dB because of patent issues. Is the SX-M2D2 also limited in the US version?

The SX-R4+ is limited as shipped, because of the Zaxcom patent, but the 135dB range is restored via a software update via the sonosax website. In other words, the limited range is a legal fiction.

I don't know if there is a similar issue with the SX-M2D2's dynamic range. But if there is, it is a non issue, solved in minutes by anyone with an internet connected computer.

Thanks for that info.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 11:16:11 AM by dogmusic »
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Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #152 on: January 15, 2020, 11:14:54 AM »
Sonosax does not limit the dynamic range on non-recorder devices such as the M2D2 or AD8+.
The patent only applies to a Recorder.

Thanks. That's good to hear.
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #153 on: January 15, 2020, 07:56:04 PM »
interesting. how do zoom, lectrosonics, sound devices, etc "get around" the zax patents
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Offline H₂O

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2020, 09:16:24 PM »
interesting. how do zoom, lectrosonics, sound devices, etc "get around" the zax patents


Maybe a circuit topological difference in the arrangement of the 2 AD's per channel - don't know for sure.


Zaxcom isn't the first company to come up with the idea (from what I have read that the idea is from the late 1980's to early 1990's) and is almost trolling the idea.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 09:24:15 PM by H₂O »
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Offline dactylus

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #155 on: January 27, 2020, 12:20:35 PM »

My pre shipped back to Trew Audio today.  Trew will be shipping to Sonosax for repair and then arrange shipping back to me.

^
Just got my unit back from Trew Audio on Friday.  I also recently received a very nice set of RA cables from Ted for the M2D2.  Now I just need to get healthy enough to make it out the door...



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Offline audBall

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #156 on: February 08, 2020, 12:00:22 PM »
^ Any chance of getting a photo of that cable setup?  Hope you're feeling better, I just got over a nasty funk. 

Offline tgos3

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #157 on: February 08, 2020, 07:19:54 PM »


>The SX-R4+ is limited as shipped, because of the Zaxcom patent, but the 135dB range is restored via a software update via the sonosax website. In other words, the limited >range is a legal fiction.

>I don't know if there is a similar issue with the SX-M2D2's dynamic range. But if there is, it is a non issue, solved in minutes by anyone with an internet connected computer.
[/quote]


I have no sympathy for Zaxcom, but we should remember that in US law, if you do not defend a patent, you lose the protection.  I think Zaxcom is aggressively litigious anyway, but they probably have a lawyer telling them they must be seen to protect their patent, whether it is justifiable or not. 


aside from that, can you provide a link to where on the "on the Sonosax site" the dynamic range upgrade for the US R4+ is available? I have looked hard and cant find it.  Your mention is the first I have seen anywhere.  If I could find such a link, I'd be a lot happier about paying full price for a "crippled" US version. 114 dB does not reach 24 bit depth.
The M2D2 has the full dynamic range, and the 'same preamps'  as the EU recorder, says Sonosax.
I would think for USERS to download such a file and use it is our own business, like unlocking a phone, but for Sonosax to supply such a link on sisght might be construed as negating the 'US version" so-called patent avoidance (IMO we need not call it "patent compliance", because there is no proof there is a conflict, and Jacques does not want to test it at law with technical disclosure etc.). If they do it anyway, hurray for them.

TG

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #158 on: February 09, 2020, 11:58:08 AM »
https://www.sonosax.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/SONONEWS_2015_10_EN.pdf


"This modification is reversible for those who may leave the US."

If you buy the machine, contact sonosax for the reversal.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 12:37:44 PM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline AB52

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #159 on: February 20, 2020, 11:57:22 PM »
For at least this reason, I do not buy Zaxcom products.   There is something about this that really bothers me.  I think there is a chance that if Zaxcom sued Sonosax for selling the units in the U.S., and if Sonosax could afford good legal counsel, Sonosax could win.  My 2 cents. 

Meanwhile this SX-m2d2 sounds great. 

I am sorry for not reading all the posts - but what would be a great recorder that would match it well?

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #160 on: February 21, 2020, 12:08:52 AM »
For at least this reason, I do not buy Zaxcom products.   There is something about this that really bothers me.  I think there is a chance that if Zaxcom sued Sonosax for selling the units in the U.S., and if Sonosax could afford good legal counsel, Sonosax could win.  My 2 cents. 

Meanwhile this SX-m2d2 sounds great. 

I am sorry for not reading all the posts - but what would be a great recorder that would match it well?

iphone?

recorder is kinda irrelevant if it can capture digital audio successfully
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #161 on: February 21, 2020, 02:09:18 AM »
Ran it today with DPA 4081 mics into a battery box (Church Audio), using a cable Sonosax made me to go from the 1/8" stereo out of the battery box into the line/mic in TA-3 inputs of the SX-M2D2.  From there to an iPhone with Apogee Metarecorder.  I have been using these mics into an iPhone with the DPA MMA-A for two years or more.  While the Sonosax setup is much bulkier (not only the SX-M2D2 itself, but also 9V battery for the mics), I am convinced the sound improvement is major.  No direct apples-to-apples comps, though.  One nice thing is that with the battery box powering the mics, the internal SX-M2D2 battery ran for two hours and seemed only about 1/3 down.

I intend to run it tomorrow as backup, I will use Schoeps MK21 caps with phantom from the Sonosax (and an external USB battery on the Sonosax).  My main pair (on piano and violin) will be Schoeps MK22s > Zoom F8n.

One nice thing: the DPA MMA-A is limited to 30 dB gain, with the 4081s on a quiet chamber music group I need to boost this at least 25 dB in post.  I ran too low today anyway (and both MMA-A and SXM2D2 take the 20dB boost with little damage).  But the SX-M2D2 will let me dial in 72 dB of gain.

Jeff

Offline AB52

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #162 on: February 22, 2020, 01:30:13 AM »
Doesn't the clock precision on the recorder matter - or does it not in this case because it is being fed a digital signal that stays digital?  Thank you in advance.

For at least this reason, I do not buy Zaxcom products.   There is something about this that really bothers me.  I think there is a chance that if Zaxcom sued Sonosax for selling the units in the U.S., and if Sonosax could afford good legal counsel, Sonosax could win.  My 2 cents. 

Meanwhile this SX-m2d2 sounds great. 

I am sorry for not reading all the posts - but what would be a great recorder that would match it well?

iphone?

recorder is kinda irrelevant if it can capture digital audio successfully

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #163 on: March 20, 2020, 02:44:58 AM »
Ran it today with DPA 4081 mics into a battery box (Church Audio), using a cable Sonosax made me to go from the 1/8" stereo out of the battery box into the line/mic in TA-3 inputs of the SX-M2D2.  From there to an iPhone with Apogee Metarecorder.  I have been using these mics into an iPhone with the DPA MMA-A for two years or more.  While the Sonosax setup is much bulkier (not only the SX-M2D2 itself, but also 9V battery for the mics), I am convinced the sound improvement is major.  No direct apples-to-apples comps, though.  One nice thing is that with the battery box powering the mics, the internal SX-M2D2 battery ran for two hours and seemed only about 1/3 down.

I intend to run it tomorrow as backup, I will use Schoeps MK21 caps with phantom from the Sonosax (and an external USB battery on the Sonosax).  My main pair (on piano and violin) will be Schoeps MK22s > Zoom F8n.

One nice thing: the DPA MMA-A is limited to 30 dB gain, with the 4081s on a quiet chamber music group I need to boost this at least 25 dB in post.  I ran too low today anyway (and both MMA-A and SXM2D2 take the 20dB boost with little damage).  But the SX-M2D2 will let me dial in 72 dB of gain.

Jeff

Between bad luck and the coronavirus shutdown I have not been able to get far with this testing.

The violin/piano session I mentioned in late February had a surprise.  The artist management organization for the musicians decided (without prior notice to us) to video the event for online streaming in the late spring.  Their crew brought in three or four cameras and wanted my mics out of the sightlines.  So no close spots on the piano and no central pairs where they wanted a camera and their mics.  I explained that the recorded balance for the archival tape would be off, nobody cared.  I was relieved for a moment that they decided to record the audio with their own Schoeps MK21s, until I noticed the setup for the pair was together about 3-4" apart and totally parallel.  Not sure that wide cardioids in that setup would do much for a stereo image.  I ended up going with my Sonosax to iPhone recording, but I was too far from the violin and attempts to fix this in Rx7 with Debleed have not done a whole lot to improve it. Two weeks later the weekly concert series was shut down until further notice for the virus.

I did do a recording in the same venue (before the campus was shut down completely to outsiders) of cello and piano, with the main setup I wanted in late February, except MK4s as main pair, and it came out splendidly.  But it was a Sunday night (no audience) session with lots of multiple takes, and I didn't bring the Sonosax to keep things simple. 

Now there are no concerts to record, anywhere.  So tune in next year for an update!

Jeff

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Sonosax SX-M2D2 Coming...
« Reply #164 on: March 20, 2020, 04:04:35 AM »
Doesn't the clock precision on the recorder matter - or does it not in this case because it is being fed a digital signal that stays digital?  Thank you in advance.

clock precision always matters in any system, as the jitter encountered on the recording side results in permanent distortion in the recording
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