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Author Topic: Mixpre-6, M/S recording  (Read 1583 times)

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Offline rippleish20

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Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« on: January 17, 2018, 05:23:54 PM »

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

 
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 05:28:58 PM »

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

Yup. Just record as "L" and "R" even though those are really "M" and "S."

I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home. It's so easy to convert back and forth in software anyway.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline kindms

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 05:32:29 PM »

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

i never mix M/S on the fly, always in post. I basically just try for similar levels and make sure no clipping and take the raw files in to audacity etc
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 05:48:47 PM »

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

Yup. Just record as "L" and "R" even though those are really "M" and "S."

I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home. It's so easy to convert back and forth in software anyway.

Wait, so if I do the m/s channel linking live, I can still change the stereo width later?
MK22's / MK41's / MK41v's (for sale) / AKG C480Bs+ck61, ck63, ck8 / Telefunken FET M60 Cards and Hypers  / DPA 4061's
KCY 250/5 and Nbob KCY (Nbob for sale) > naiant PFA or IPA or Nbox 
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Sony M-10 / Tascam DR-100mkIII / d:vice

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 05:50:11 PM »
of course, you can even adjust the ratio of m and s in recordings which weren't made in m/s
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline rippleish20

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 06:06:50 PM »
Thank you (both of you)
MK22's / MK41's / MK41v's (for sale) / AKG C480Bs+ck61, ck63, ck8 / Telefunken FET M60 Cards and Hypers  / DPA 4061's
KCY 250/5 and Nbob KCY (Nbob for sale) > naiant PFA or IPA or Nbox 
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Sony M-10 / Tascam DR-100mkIII / d:vice

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 07:29:32 PM »
Helps to always route your Mid mic into a Left or odd numbered input channel and your Side mic into a Right or even numbered channel, because that's the standard channel assignment for doing so and what mixing software and Mid/Side plugins will use.  You can fix that afterwards of course, but easier to get it right from the start.

Yes you can "re-adjust" the Mid/Side balance of a Left/Right recording - to some extent and with a few caveats:

1) The range of re-adjustment becomes more limited.  You can't get back what isn't there.  For instance- if you were to decode your Mid/Side pair to Left/Right at the input stage prior to recording and set the ratio to 100/0 or 0/100 so you were getting all Mid or all Side in your L/R recording, you cannot re-adjust again later, you'll only have all of one or the other in your Left/Right recording.  That's an extreme example, but any matrix setting other than straight 50/50 will sacrifice some signal-to-noise ratio in the lower channel which you can't get back.  Not a big issue but something to be aware of.

2) You can re-adjust the Mid/Side ratio of any stereo recording and this is the basis of a number of powerful mastering techniques.   However, listen carefully for phasing effects when doing so with non-coincidently mic'd recordings made using spacing between the microphones.  That shouldn't be a problem for coincident recordings (X/Y or Mid/Side) if the mics were setup so as to be truly coincident.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 07:41:22 PM »
I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home.

Noah, can't you set the Mixpre-6 to do the Mid/Side to Left/Right conversion on it's headphone monitor or line-output?  I've not used a MixPre but have to imagine that Sound Device can do so, as most recorders which have a Mid/Side option allow you to place the converter prior to recording or on the outputs.  Both my Edirol R-44 and Tascam DR-680 can do that.  Doing so allows you to record the Mid and Side channels independently, while listening to the converted Left/Right output while recording or afterwards on directly playback from the machine, which allows you to play with the ratio and find the best setting while listening. 

More fun on the way home.
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 07:50:43 PM »
It appears you can do it via the headset settings. And I did read about the odd versus even channel notion. It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...
MK22's / MK41's / MK41v's (for sale) / AKG C480Bs+ck61, ck63, ck8 / Telefunken FET M60 Cards and Hypers  / DPA 4061's
KCY 250/5 and Nbob KCY (Nbob for sale) > naiant PFA or IPA or Nbox 
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Sony M-10 / Tascam DR-100mkIII / d:vice

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 07:55:49 PM »
i never mix M/S on the fly, always in post. I basically just try for similar levels and make sure no clipping and take the raw files in to audacity etc.

That's pretty much what I do and is good recording procedure for maximizing the signal to tape (er, digitization).  Keep in mind that if you set your recording levels so that both Mid and Side have equal modulation (are peaking at the same levels) when you do the matrix later and dial in a 50/50 ratio, it's not really a 50/50 ratio but will be biased more towards Side than Mid.    That's because most recording situations will produce a higher peaking Mid signal than Side signal if the mic-sensitivities and recording levels are set identically.  If you record the Side signal with more level so its peaking the same as the Mid, you're starting out with more Side signal when you do the conversion.

But that doesn't matter if you are adjusting by ear and don't care what the ratio number you end up with. 

It only matters if you got it sounding good and wanted to try and use the same conversion ratio everytime without really listening to the later recordings.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2018, 07:58:40 PM »
It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...

You only need to do that if you are doing it the old-fashioned way converting through an analog mixing desk. The Mid/Side converter in the recorder, your mixing software, or plugin does that channel mul't and phase inversion thing for you.

Still, good to learn so you know what those things are actually doing under the hood.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:00:18 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2018, 10:55:43 PM »
It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...

You only need to do that if you are doing it the old-fashioned way converting through an analog mixing desk. The Mid/Side converter in the recorder, your mixing software, or plugin does that channel mul't and phase inversion thing for you.

Still, good to learn so you know what those things are actually doing under the hood.

I haven't recorded M/S in a few years but I always did it the (new)old fashioned way. Put my L/R stereo file in Wavelab - copied the R channel, flipped the phase and panned, linked the gain and mix to taste for width. It only takes a minute...
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2018, 12:22:58 AM »
I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home.

Noah, can't you set the Mixpre-6 to do the Mid/Side to Left/Right conversion on it's headphone monitor or line-output?

You can definitely do it over the headphone out, I'm actually not sure of the line out (which I tend to use in the car, though I could use the hp out, obviously.)

I know that the way I do it isn't the way it's "supposed" to be done, and I know that there might be some theoretical SN ratio advantage to recording in raw M/S over decoded L/R. What can I say? At 2am when I'm uploading the sources, I like the ease and speed of L/S stereo files when I load everything into the DAW, the plugin software makes adjusting the ratio so easy. (I've been using this: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/VUMTdeluxe/VUMTdeluxe.php)
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2018, 08:47:19 AM »
Practically it probably doesn't make much difference unless you saved it at an extreme setting.  Not a reason to change what's working for you.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mixpre-6, M/S recording
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2018, 09:14:02 AM »
(I've been using this: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/VUMTdeluxe/VUMTdeluxe.php)

Interesting looking plugins, will have to check them out when I get my editing machine operational again. You're using the one you linked to for M/S re-adjustment?  The only part of the VUMT deluxe description which seems applicable is it's Mono Maker function for narrowing the stereo image below a certain frequency.  Does it also includes full range M/S adjustment capability which isn't mentioned there?  Or do you just crank up the threshold frequency of the Mono Maker to full range? And if so does the range of control allow widening as well as narrowing?
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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