Topic: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM

[Galen]

Actually, the fact that everyone has a source of electronic light which they flick on/off is something I have found extremely helpful when I do participate in a stealth AUD recording. I remember in 2004 at a Pigmy Love Circus concert security grabbed my shoulder and asked what I was looking at (was a recorder, grabbed my cell phone to show him). He walked away. And in case you were wondering why anyone would care about an AUD recording of Pigmy Love Circus is because Danny Carey of Tool plays/ed drums and he like Tool very anti-taping or capturing of the music they create live (air-quotes). Really, the amount of artificial light at concerts is helpful to melt into the crowd when you need to look at levels. You can still stealth record even with the heightened awareness which is well founded for the most part. Always best to get equipped up in the bathroom -if you are at a large venue always go for the family bathroom, total privacy- and then have everything set to record by doing minimal actions when you are in with the crowd.

[daspyknows]

A week later, went to the Pine Knob or DTE (Michigan) as it is referred to now. My best buddy came from NY for the show. No problem with security as we have connections locally. We had row 7 tickets - closest I have ever been to Tool. Great performance. Thing is, saw bomb sniffing dogs, armed cops inside the venue (never see that @ DTE) and the 'security' were checking people out if they had pulled out their phone. Intense stuff. Keep in mind, these were events just a week + from the Ariana Grande performance in Manchester, England.

Since the Manchester attack, I have noticed a very real change. To all the tapers out there, keep on doing what you want but know that your hobby is now significantly harder. If you are not feeling it now, great, I hope that you never do. But the music business is a business. Businesses want to sell whatever product they offer in order to make money. That is the bottom line. Tapers are lower level annoyances in the eyes of many bands, Tool included, and until now getting your gear inside hasn't had to be like breaking into a bank. There are now several items in use that venues and promoters have at their disposal to use. Yes, they are for weapons and whatnot but some of this newer implemented technology will pick up whatever equipment you are attempting to covertly bring in.

I was in London having recorded Eric Clapton at the Royal Albert Hall with Scooter123 the night of Manchester.  We had 2 more shows and had people telling us it wasn't worth it.  We put together a plan and STILL got in unsearched the next 2 nights.  There are ways to get gear past security.  It just takes ingenuity, practice and maintaining one's composure.   Aside from the security issues getting gear in and the see something, say something mentality it is actually much easier to record these days.  Gear much smaller, never a need to swap batteries/media and lots of lights due to phones.  Back in the day (many of us on here remember the days) when we had to tape over all lights on the recorders because a red light spotted from above was an indication of a taper.  Venues also made more of a point to look for tapers, now they have bigger concerns.

[furburger]

If you get caught inside a venue taping with an audience rig or IEM packs, you will be brought to security, questioned by police and if you are lucky, escorted out of the building. Your gear is a crap shoot.  ***You might get it back, might not. ***

re: gear

***UNLESS YOU ARE A FOOL***, this is 100% incorrect.

they can keep your media and/or batteries (disposable), anything else would fall under "theft".


and if over $500 in value, in most states, felony theft.






shame on those who spread misinformation.

[furburger]

IEM tapers seem to be a very secretive bunch, but from the ones I've interacted with, it appears most tape from outside the arena. Once had a dude send me a photo of his rig in the trunk of his car. Had a full rack of receivers/recorders/antennas. Was pretty impressive...

yes, they are.

a group of 20 or so who own every wireless box known/used onstage.

they mail them to each other, and trade the recordings only amongst themselves.

I know 3 of them  (JJ, BD, and a 3rd who shall remain 'initial-less')....and have occasionally pried loose a show or two...problem is that IEM's are (were? haven't requested one in over 10 years) are pretty unreliable over the course of a 2 hour show.

numerous dropouts/level fluctuations.


and yes, the early guys were recording in the parking lot straight to S-VHS.

[furburger]

Where do these IEM recordings circulate?  Dime? I don't think I've ever heard one.

they don't.

they circulate amongst themselves.

U2 and Def Leppard are 2 of the biggies.

[furburger]

obsidian...

Yes, I have been talking to people and I feel the exact same way. Venues where up to the end of 2016 you could walk right into with your taping stuff 'recording and geared-up' with zero security at the door now have metal detectors, wands, pat downs and a sense of a take no shit attitude by staff. I was at The 1975 in Detroit the night of the Manchester attack @ Ariana Grande show and first I heard of it was when Matt Healy spoke about it after 'Change of Heart'. That show really had some intense energy from the band. They are from Manchester and it hit home for them, you could hear it.

A few days later I drove many hours to Hamilton, Ontario about a year ago to see Tool. To note, I did record IEM of this and had to physically go below the ground into the parking deck to figure out the signal during soundcheck then got promptly kicked out of that area by security. Anyway. Getting into the venue, I had 1 (DAT Sony M1), 1 RF box, plugs + headphones, DPA 4061 + battery box, and a Sony M10. First security sent me to second level security where a cop watched a higher-trained person do the check on me...gave my cover story, made it in. They wanded me and I got felt by security... I had a lot of stuff to sneak in. Helps when you are closer to 40 than 20. Went to a family bathroom and got my stuff organized then went to a bar inside the venue where I stayed until ~10 minutes before the show started (had 2 beers over 2 hours), went back to the bathroom, started my sources and went to my seat. Recorded a great performance. Mix sounded superb and the AUD was awesome. Long drive back home - got back at 3AM, up at 7, took kids to school, went to work, crashed at night. But I almost got popped at the door and I've been doing this a long time.

A week later, went to the Pine Knob or DTE (Michigan) as it is referred to now. My best buddy came from NY for the show. No problem with security as we have connections locally. We had row 7 tickets - closest I have ever been to Tool. Great performance. Thing is, saw bomb sniffing dogs, armed cops inside the venue (never see that @ DTE) and the 'security' were checking people out if they had pulled out their phone. Intense stuff. Keep in mind, these were events just a week + from the Ariana Grande performance in Manchester, England.

Since the Manchester attack, I have noticed a very real change. To all the tapers out there, keep on doing what you want but know that your hobby is now significantly harder. If you are not feeling it now, great, I hope that you never do. But the music business is a business. Businesses want to sell whatever product they offer in order to make money. That is the bottom line. Tapers are lower level annoyances in the eyes of many bands, Tool included, and until now getting your gear inside hasn't had to be like breaking into a bank. There are now several items in use that venues and promoters have at their disposal to use. Yes, they are for weapons and whatnot but some of this newer implemented technology will pick up whatever equipment you are attempting to covertly bring in.

In October 2017, the night of the Las Vegas shooting, I took my eldest to see Paul McCartney in Detroit, MI. So it was me and my son going through metal-detector-airport-security-style for McCartney. None of this would've rang off bells even two years back. He gets through obviously fine, I had DAT, scanner, IEM box, wires, headphones, microphones... taping stuff with me. I had several security staff come to me, wands, another pat-down. I make it through of course because hey I am with my kid right but for those that maybe are not as well prepared... good luck.  At that McCartney show, I saw bomb sniffing dogs inside and outside the venue, unmarked security personal blending as attendees, armed police and at least one policeman w/what looked to me like an AK-47. But I don't know for sure. If I had my way, every American would have health insurance and people could have guns only if they passed yearly competency tests. So what do I know?

Maybe I am older, which I am, but the thing with taping these days is that I am glad I do maybe 90% of it remotely so I do not have to even worry about security anymore. Things are definitely different these days with taping.
Things have changed.

And I'm not just talking about the dumpster fire that is the United States White House under President Trump.

last year, late April, RHCP and Soundgarden at Amalie Arena in Tampa (all day radio fest), got 2 decks, mics and a vidcam in thru walk-thru metal detectors and wands...easily at that....plus all the usual stuff (phone, keys, Nicorette gum, etc...)


and it seems *easier* this year, even with the metal detectors.


about to go catch show #20 in the last 12 days.


and all have been recorded.

[daspyknows]

If you get caught inside a venue taping with an audience rig or IEM packs, you will be brought to security, questioned by police and if you are lucky, escorted out of the building. Your gear is a crap shoot.  ***You might get it back, might not. ***

re: gear

***UNLESS YOU ARE A FOOL***, this is 100% incorrect.

they can keep your media and/or batteries (disposable), anything else would fall under "theft".


and if over $500 in value, in most states, felony theft.






shame on those who spread misinformation.

So a small time weed grower is giving a senior level attorney legal advice.    

My advice would be to take legal advice from someone who is really a lawyer and not someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and thinks he is a lawyer.

[fanofjam]

If you get caught inside a venue taping with an audience rig or IEM packs, you will be brought to security, questioned by police and if you are lucky, escorted out of the building. Your gear is a crap shoot.  ***You might get it back, might not. ***

re: gear

***UNLESS YOU ARE A FOOL***, this is 100% incorrect.

they can keep your media and/or batteries (disposable), anything else would fall under "theft".


and if over $500 in value, in most states, felony theft.






shame on those who spread misinformation.

So a small time weed grower is giving a senior level attorney legal advice.    

My advice would be to take legal advice from someone who is really a lawyer and not someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and thinks he is a lawyer.

This subject has been talked about many times during the many years I've been on tapersection.  The general consensus has always been the same and it hasn't changed and I don't think it ever will change.  But it's driven by common sense and gear/self preservation, not the law.

Inside a venue, the law is basically irrelevant when you're faced with a) venue security, or b) police that more than likely won't support any claim you might make to the legality of taping (even if you do have proof).  If the security/cops have you physically detained, and they decide you're not leaving the venue with your gear, then you're not leaving with your gear...PERIOD end of discussion.  In that situation, they've got 100% of the power and you have none. 

That's why the 'best practice' strategy for gear preservation has always been to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.  If you're caught and it looks like a situation might be escalating...don't argue, don't stick around and fight what's highly likely to be a losing battle.  Cut your losses and make tracks.  Get out of the venue ASAP with your gear intact...you've only lost a recording and the price of the ticket.  Your gear isn't worth the risk of STUPIDLY claiming to a cop or security that they're committing a felony by taking your gear. 

[daspyknows]

The point of arguing with security/cops or not in regards to gear confiscation is a function of the investment in gear.  As stated,  not getting caught is the best course of action.  This means not doing stupid stuff inside the venue like scamming seats, smoking weed in venues where its not allowed or being a drunk idiot.  Most of the times people get caught  taping it is not actually taping but being careless or stupid. 

[nak700s]

Hopefully using a cell phone as a recorder will soon become as easy and reliable as using a dedicated recorder.  Once that happens (I'm confident it's only a matter of time), that will be one less piece of gear to sneak in since EVERYONE brings in cell phones.  (While some shows are trying to keep people from having their phones, those seem to be few and far between.)

I spoke to one of the Security Personnel at a venue in ATL and they are going to start using this ...

https://www.overyondr.com/

Using a powerful magnet within an inch of your phone...what could possibly go wrong?!
Yes, I've heard of venues trying these out.  I can only imagine the hold-up while exiting a venue when everyone has to stop to free their phone...or better yet, the first time there is a life threatening emergency because a person couldn't be reached on their phone because it was locked up (think baby sitters and elderly family).  There are so many possible problems with these bags, and as much as I don't want them to be used, I also don't want it to be because someone died because they couldn't call 911 or something like that.

[edtyre]

The point of arguing with security/cops or not in regards to gear confiscation is a function of the investment in gear.  As stated,  not getting caught is the best course of action.  This means not doing stupid stuff inside the venue like scamming seats, smoking weed in venues where its not allowed or being a drunk idiot.  Most of the times people get caught  taping it is not actually taping but being careless or stupid.

Yeh, i save my getting high and acting stupid for "open taping" shows

[daspyknows]

The point of arguing with security/cops or not in regards to gear confiscation is a function of the investment in gear.  As stated,  not getting caught is the best course of action.  This means not doing stupid stuff inside the venue like scamming seats, smoking weed in venues where its not allowed or being a drunk idiot.  Most of the times people get caught  taping it is not actually taping but being careless or stupid.

Yeh, i save my getting high and acting stupid for "open taping" shows

Ed, I don't see you as the acting stupid type of taper 

[nak700s]

As clearly stated above, which is as true as the day is long, if they got you, they got you...so be respectful and cut your losses.  Respect goes a long way to walking out with undamaged gear, or any gear at all.  If you have to give up "tapes & batteries", just do it, look sad and remorseful and pray they allow you to stay for the rest of the show.  If they want your gear, nicely tell them that you're not comfortable with that and it isn't like you can use it without the power or media.  They may even give you the option to put it in your car and come back inside... this has happened to me more than once.
Again, like stated above, the law doesn't matter once you got caught.  They know it, you know it, but they still have ALL the power, and will back each other up.  That said, be smart.

[opsopcopolis]

Where do these IEM recordings circulate?  Dime? I don't think I've ever heard one.

they don't.

they circulate amongst themselves.

There's a fair amount on Dime, but that's kinda the impression I got as well. Managed to trade for one from a show I was at a few years ago, but that's the closest I've ever gotten...

[daspyknows]

Where do these IEM recordings circulate?  Dime? I don't think I've ever heard one.

they don't.

they circulate amongst themselves.

There's a fair amount on Dime, but that's kinda the impression I got as well. Managed to trade for one from a show I was at a few years ago, but that's the closest I've ever gotten...

I have a bunch from a few unnamed IEM tapers.  I would only share what they have released into the wild themselves.  I have also sat in a car with one of the IEM tapers listening to the show live on the car stereo.  It was a show I wasn't planning on attending and was more of a social visit.  Any comment about dropouts and stuff is utter BS.  If you are running the right gear and picking up multiple channels with the right frequencies and know what you are doing in post production the results are quite spectacular.  Only thing missing is a clean audience source to provide and ambient sound to the final product. 

As with audience tapers there are those that do it right and those that fluff their garbage.  Some of the "bootleg" releases on Dime are crap, with click tracks and other artifacts.   Those who do it right don't have to tell everyone how great their recordings sound.