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Author Topic: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.  (Read 6698 times)

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Offline aaronji

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2019, 04:50:21 PM »
Yes, the rule-of-thumb assumes a free field and some other things (like a point source). Even in a room, though, it is still a useful construct to consider, I think. The reverberant sound level and ambient noise are more-or-less constant everywhere in the room, so the relationship between the direct sound and distance still holds and, as you decrease the distance, you are increasing the proportion of direct sound recorded by an estimable quantity. The point source assumption may be a bigger issue, with repeaters and line arrays and whatnot. At least as I understand it...

In any event, the relationship between distance and sound pressure levels is not "inverse square" but just "inverse" (SPL is proportional to 1/r).

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2019, 05:00:50 PM »
My PIP experience w/the M10 is that the B3s, at least the ones I have, like a little more power. I switch to the high sensitivity*. The mics come in two sensitivity ratings, generally described as wireless or phantom powered. The former are rated at 140 dBA SPL while the phantom get a 10 dBA bump. Bought new, they're about half the cost of DPA 406x units. Check them out here.

* Part of taping is knowing your gear and any limitations that might be exposed under stressful conditions. In our game, the sound source, the proximity to it and the volume one might expect will dictate which gear kit you take to the show or how the one you have will perform. I don't do "metal" shows but some string bands or that jazz drummer's kick might test me. So I scoot close or sit not so close as need be. (While it's not a perfect analog, I tend to think about sound waves behaving as light. The closer you are the brighter a light seems to be... the further back, for the same light, not so much.)

The PIP of the M10 I think is something like 2.5v. If you think you're show will be killer loud, put a battery box (or a small preamp) ahead of the recorder to protect the mics. Nothing replaces experience and experimentation to help cement these variables in your understanding of the game.  Good luck.

I’ll testify on the B3s. Lots of great Ben jazz tapes made B3>m10. Closer to DPA 4061 than half as good. Punch way above their cost.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2019, 06:22:58 PM »

* ..So I scoot close or sit not so close as need be. (While it's not a perfect analog, I tend to think about sound waves behaving as light. The closer you are the brighter a light seems to be... the further back, for the same light, not so much.)
That is CORRECT, the "cube-square" or Inverse Square law indicates that light and sound do behave in a similar fashion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
Quote
In photography and stage lighting, the inverse-square law is used to determine the "fall off" or the difference in illumination on a subject as it moves closer to or further from the light source. For quick approximations, it is enough to remember that doubling the distance reduces illumination to one quarter;[9] or similarly, to halve the illumination increase the distance by a factor of 1.4 (the square root of 2), and to double illumination, reduce the distance to 0.7 (square root of 1/2).


Sound in a gas
In acoustics, the sound pressure of a spherical wavefront radiating from a point source decreases by 50% as the distance r is doubled; measured in dB, the decrease is still 6.02 dB, since dB represents an intensity ratio.

That’s all true, but don’t forget that a well tuned line array should provide more or less equal spl throughout the room
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline Ben Turnbull

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2019, 11:29:21 PM »
Enough! We're going to scare the poor newbie.  ;D  Sorry to have side tracked the OP so far, 'just trying to add a little more context to the choice of gear question.  '

I suggest we stand for a 8 count and see what the next question might be.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 10:52:52 PM by Ben Turnbull »
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2019, 10:36:05 AM »
OKM II Rock Studio incl. A3 - 338 euro (https://www.mp3-player.de/index.php?page=article&ID=1822)
(this version is good for both loud rock and soft stuff, making it an allround mic)

Sony A10 - 228 (Amazon.de)

568  euro + shipping/battery. Stretch the budget to 600 if you can, and you have a set that is capable of making excellent recordings and is 'beginnerfriendly'. No worries about battery, no worries about hiding (mic can be placed in your ears), can handle lot of spl's.

Used it for years, get close to the stack and if you do not have to many clappers around you it will turn out great.

This will keep you motivated and after a lot of gigs you are up for more.
Recorders: SD MixPre 3 II; Sony A10; Edirol R44; Sony M10; Sony WM-D6; Edirol R-09HR; iRiver IHP-120; Sharp MD-MT20; Sharp MD-MT190
Microphones: Nevaton MC59/S (cards); Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 7.4mod (cards); AT831 (cards); Nakamichi CM300 (all CP's); Soundman OKM II Rock Studios
Preamps: Beyerdynamic MV100; JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b; Naiant IPA; Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2019, 11:25:12 AM »
OKM II Rock Studio incl. A3 - 338 euro (https://www.mp3-player.de/index.php?page=article&ID=1822)
(this version is good for both loud rock and soft stuff, making it an allround mic)


Those are omni mics, looks like. Which isn't necessarily a problem, but it will make them less useful for shows where you're farther from the sound source. #grossovergeneralizationofcardvsomnidebate

For small, affordable cardioid mics that pick up sounds primarily in one direction, I'd highly recommend the Audio-Technica 853s. They're not quite as small as some of the tiny omni mics out there, but they're as small as I've seen in an acceptable cardioid mic unless you're talking way-high-end stuff.

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2019, 01:54:10 PM »
OKM II Rock Studio incl. A3 - 338 euro (https://www.mp3-player.de/index.php?page=article&ID=1822)
(this version is good for both loud rock and soft stuff, making it an allround mic)


Those are omni mics, looks like. Which isn't necessarily a problem, but it will make them less useful for shows where you're farther from the sound source. #grossovergeneralizationofcardvsomnidebate

For small, affordable cardioid mics that pick up sounds primarily in one direction, I'd highly recommend the Audio-Technica 853s. They're not quite as small as some of the tiny omni mics out there, but they're as small as I've seen in an acceptable cardioid mic unless you're talking way-high-end stuff.

I agree, the AT853 are very good too and them being cardiods will benefit in most stealth situations. But since the AT853 is no longer available (there is a replacementtype, from which I forgot the exacttype) and he would have order from the US (customs and all), I gave the German Soundmans as a good  - no nonsense - always good recordings - alternative.
Recorders: SD MixPre 3 II; Sony A10; Edirol R44; Sony M10; Sony WM-D6; Edirol R-09HR; iRiver IHP-120; Sharp MD-MT20; Sharp MD-MT190
Microphones: Nevaton MC59/S (cards); Milab VM-44 Links (cards), AT853 7.4mod (cards); AT831 (cards); Nakamichi CM300 (all CP's); Soundman OKM II Rock Studios
Preamps: Beyerdynamic MV100; JK Laboratories DVC-X-17b; Naiant IPA; Nakamichi MX-100 modded for 9v battery use

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Newbie here, wanna start taping but don't know where to start.
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2019, 06:25:23 PM »
I agree, the AT853 are very good too and them being cardiods will benefit in most stealth situations. But since the AT853 is no longer available (there is a replacementtype, from which I forgot the exacttype) and he would have order from the US (customs and all), I gave the German Soundmans as a good  - no nonsense - always good recordings - alternative.

The U853 is the replacement for the AT853. If it's not available in Europe, though, yeah, that's a problem.

 

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