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Author Topic: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)  (Read 1288 times)

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Offline DSatz

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so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« on: August 10, 2020, 12:52:03 PM »
Hi. I pretty much think that I've documented the history of "Blumlein", ORTF and M/S stereo recording methods by now; does anyone know where the so-called "DIN" stereo recording methods come from? I say so-called because I've never seen any DIN standard that specifies a particular method of recording--and given the nature and function of the DIN, I think it's unlikely that such a standard actually exists. I've always assumed that the name was made up by someone who probably had nothing to do with the DIN, who wanted to make their own idea sound authoritative.

But I wonder if it's still possible to trace any of the actual history, or whether that's lost in the sands of time by now. If anyone knows the secret origin story for "DIN" stereo recording and (even better) where I can verify it, could you please step forward? Does anyone know how long ago the name began being used, where and/or by whom--or (looking through the other end of the binoculars) does anyone know how long ago the actual method, regardless of any naming or lack thereof, started to be on anyone's list of suggestions for two-mike setups?

To tell the truth I don't even know what distances and angles "DIN" is supposed to be, or whether there's general agreement about that. I'm pretty sure I've seen one or more recommendations for cardioids, with alternative methods referred to as "DIN A" and "DIN B" or the like, and one for narrower patterns such as supercardioid or hypercardioid. But those might just be other people's further add-ons to the original attempt at sounding official.

Plus with any "cookbook" recipe, you have to ask what kind of microphones they were developed with. "Cardioid" doesn't say a whole heck of a lot unless you at least specify small or large, single-diaphragm or dual-diaphragm, since their behaviors are so different above and below the midrange. X/Y with dual-diaphragm cardioids (which generally have broader patterns at low frequencies--sometimes much broader) gives a whole other, much less fun experience of room and space from X/Y with single-diaphragm cardioids, for example--while the angle you can use for X/Y with large-diaphragm microphones is limited by their greater off-axis treble rolloff, which forces the angle you choose between the capsules to be less, which again undermines the spaciousness at low frequencies. And there are almost no actual supercardioid or (especially) hypercardioid microphones on the market, especially with a range wide enough to use for music recording--but there sure are a lot of microphones in between that their manufacturers call one or the other pattern--not to mention how their pickup patterns may vary at different frequencies ... all of which affects how you would choose to deploy those microphones in stereo pairs, if at all.

But I digress as I so often do, so I'll stop now and put this question out to the universe. Thank you.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 01:02:32 PM by DSatz »
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Offline if_then_else

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 01:44:05 PM »
Based on Sengpiel's description (and several related thesis papers), it appears that this was only meant as a draft or proposal. I don't think it has ever been officially adapted as a norm.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/BekannteStereoMikrofonsystemeUndIhreWinkel.pdf

Offline heathen

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 01:44:14 PM »
Quote
The DIN technique is specified by Deutsches Institut für Normung (the German national standards organization). This method is similar to the ORTF using two cardioid microphones, but they are spaced 20 cm (7.9 inches) apart at an angle of 90°. Results are similar to the ORTF technique, but it more suitable to miking at shorter distances, such as a piano.

Source: https://lossenderosstudio.com/article.php?subject=11
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Offline DSatz

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 03:37:17 PM »
Well, the late Prof. Sengpiel was a real stickler for factual detail, so his chart is the most credible source that I've seen so far.

As far as the Los Senderos Studio article is concerned, I can understand an American not realizing this, but it makes little sense to say that something is specified by the DIN if you don't give the number and version of the standard. There are literally tens of thousands of them, covering all areas of industry and manufacture, and they're revised periodically to keep up with industry trends. For example, the one that defines phantom powering (DIN 45596) has gone through a number of important revisions, and most 1970s phantom power supplies don't meet later versions of the standard; modern, transformerless microphones won't work properly with them if at all. I see them offered to the unwary on eBay all the time (e.g. the Neumann N 80).

But unifying industrial manufacture is one thing, while a specification for a stereo main microphone setup doesn't fit the DIN's mission in any way that's obvious to me. So if indeed someone on a DIN working committee put forth such a proposal at some point, I can understand very well why it wouldn't have been accepted. Still, I'd like to know who, if anyone, actually did that, and when if so, and what it was based on.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 03:42:23 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline heathen

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 04:18:43 PM »
This is an interesting topic, and I can't help but wonder if there might be a better chance of finding someone who knows on Gearslutz.  (Which is not to say the topic shouldn't have been raised here, nor that someone on here won't know the details.)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 04:48:07 PM »
To clarify for anyone wondering, DIN as a near-spaced stereo-pair microphone configuration refers to a 20cm/90-degree inclusive angle near-spaced stereo pair configuration using cardioids, and DIN-A to the same 90 degree angle with a 17cm spacing (often using supercardioids), at least as used around TS.com.  While the specified angles and spacing don't seem to vary, the polar patterns used seem to be general convention rather than being rigidly specified.

I always assumed both of these to be practicality-derived mashup adaptions of OFTF and NOS, but I've no idea where they actually originated.

FWIW, as far as history a quick internet search turned up a 1998 Sweetwater article mentioning DIN- https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/din-stereo/  And I came across a few attributions and references to articles by Tom Bates such as this one- https://web.archive.org/web/20160614191539/http://emerald.tufts.edu/programs/mma/mrap/StereoMicTechniques.pdf in which he states in part:

The DIN stereo technique is more useful at shorter distances, for example on piano, small ensembles or used for creating stereo on a instrument section in a classical orchestra. (Proposed standard in Germany)

^ which seems to be a common description appearing in most mentions of DIN as a near-spaced stereo microphone configuration.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 05:35:04 PM »
Once the realization fully sunk in that all named near-space stereo pair configurations are little more than a few specific points along the continuum of spacing/angle/pattern relationships, sharing a common history of representing a few of the most commonly used compromise configurations among many, I more or less lost interest in the name origin mystery. 

What maters to me and I suspect most tapers is not that ORTF is of French origin, NOS Dutch, and whatever the Italian's claim as their historically insightful variant, but how it sounds and in what situation each variant might be most applicable. Folks might as well call it Sally rather than DIN and I wouldn't expect the Germans to protest!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline if_then_else

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 01:20:26 AM »
Well, the late Prof. Sengpiel was a real stickler for factual detail, so his chart is the most credible source that I've seen so far.

You're always on thin ice quoting a master thesis but anyway...

Quote
4.3.3 DIN-Verfahren
Das DIN-Verfahren ist in der Praxis nicht bekannt und stellt einen einstigen Vorschlag vom
deutschen Rundfunk für eine Aufstellung der Äquivalenzstereofonie dar.
Ich habe dieser
Aufstellung dennoch Beachtung geschenkt, da sie einen Mittelwert zwischen ORTF und
NOS bildet und somit repräsentativ für die unzähligen Möglichkeiten einer Aufstellung mit
ungefähr gleichwertigem Anteil von Pegel- und Laufzeitdifferenzen sein soll. Die Eckdaten
dieses Verfahrens lauten: Mikrofonbasis = 20cm, Öffnungswinkel = 90°. ^[82]
Dies hat einen Aufnahmebereich von 101° zur Folge, wobei das Verhältnis von Pegel- zu
Laufzeitdifferenzen 52,4% zu 47,6% beträgt.

http://www.floxbox.net/data/diplomarbeit_florianparzer.pdf

Offline DSatz

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 07:39:59 AM »
if_then, many thanks. That's a very nice paper and I hadn't seen it before. SAE over here, I think, is rather different from the way it seems to be in Germany.

The author almost apologizes for including "DIN" on his roster of techniques since he considers it so similar to ORTF (somewhere between ORTF and NOS) and because the method is, according to him, unknown in the studio world (my impression as well). But it serves for him as an example of how a little "wiggle room" can be a good thing once one has paid due attention to the fundamentals. In his listening tests, which were based on miking the same drum kit many different ways, he found that it gave results very similar to ORTF but just a little more detailed in rendering the timbre of particular elements, since its stereophonic recording angle is slightly less. He clearly liked it better overall than "stock" ORTF or NOS in his tests.

--Gutbucket, it's fine with me if you don't care about the history of recording methods. I posted here to get and share information, not to check your attitude. I learn a bunch sometimes by following one path or another on impulse, often going farther than other people consider reasonable, but I want to make sure I haven't missed something important "waiting around the bend". Sometimes I find valuable goodies, but at least as often, the things that I find out seem kind of useless--until, some time later, they can be combined with other seemingly useless stuff. Then occasionally, what emerges may be somewhat less useless.

In fact I'd be content with that as my epitaph: "During his long life, he became somewhat less useless." I know that while it's actually happening, though, to other people it probably looks more like foolishly wandering around, or jerking off, or I don't know what. It even looks that way to me sometimes. OK, a lot of the time.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 07:56:49 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline heathen

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 09:47:40 AM »
Quote
4.3.3 DIN-Verfahren
Das DIN-Verfahren ist in der Praxis nicht bekannt und stellt einen einstigen Vorschlag vom
deutschen Rundfunk für eine Aufstellung der Äquivalenzstereofonie dar.
Ich habe dieser
Aufstellung dennoch Beachtung geschenkt, da sie einen Mittelwert zwischen ORTF und
NOS bildet und somit repräsentativ für die unzähligen Möglichkeiten einer Aufstellung mit
ungefähr gleichwertigem Anteil von Pegel- und Laufzeitdifferenzen sein soll. Die Eckdaten
dieses Verfahrens lauten: Mikrofonbasis = 20cm, Öffnungswinkel = 90°. ^[82]
Dies hat einen Aufnahmebereich von 101° zur Folge, wobei das Verhältnis von Pegel- zu
Laufzeitdifferenzen 52,4% zu 47,6% beträgt.

Can anyone translate this?
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 10:11:09 AM »
Quote
4.3.3 DIN-Verfahren
Das DIN-Verfahren ist in der Praxis nicht bekannt und stellt einen einstigen Vorschlag vom
deutschen Rundfunk für eine Aufstellung der Äquivalenzstereofonie dar.
Ich habe dieser
Aufstellung dennoch Beachtung geschenkt, da sie einen Mittelwert zwischen ORTF und
NOS bildet und somit repräsentativ für die unzähligen Möglichkeiten einer Aufstellung mit
ungefähr gleichwertigem Anteil von Pegel- und Laufzeitdifferenzen sein soll. Die Eckdaten
dieses Verfahrens lauten: Mikrofonbasis = 20cm, Öffnungswinkel = 90°. ^[82]
Dies hat einen Aufnahmebereich von 101° zur Folge, wobei das Verhältnis von Pegel- zu
Laufzeitdifferenzen 52,4% zu 47,6% beträgt.

Can anyone translate this?

Sure.

Quote
4.3.3 Signa modum
Hunc tumultum sensit modum in praxi notum est, et non est prior a rogationem
Germanica radio ad album de condigno stereophony. Et hoc
Sed attendendum est, ut ad institutionem, quod est average valorem et inter ORTF
Et sic formae repraesentativae n antequam aestimaretur scabillum possibilities of a album
Tempus Transit differentia inter esse et pari gradu. A key notitia
Haec autem cognitio sunt: ​​tortor ligula, facilisis = basi 20cm: ostium = angulum XC SAac. ^ [LXXXII]
Hoc recording praecessi in a range de CI ° Ratio autem est in campestri undique
Ut differentias aetatis: 52.4% quod 47.6%.
"The music is your passport - Your magic key - To all the madness that awaits you." B.L. '86

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 10:53:51 AM »
Yes, I totally agree and really didn't intend to come across as critical of the inquiry.  I've wondered too, find the history of recording fascinating, and commonly find myself absorbed in what I'm certain others consider pointless and otherwise useless wandering around!  There is some useful stuff in dark and dusty corners.

My post above was just a poorly implemented reminder intended to get readers to consider acronym-named "equivalence stereo" configurations not as magical things in themselves which are unique and exist on their own terms, but rather as near-spaced microphone-pair configurations that gained historical recognition, are easy-to-implement and have proven useful.  Just hoping to lift the veil on the phenomena underlying it all for others in the same way that's proven insightful and useful for myself.

 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 11:02:45 AM »
..identifying with this bit of the Googolic Latin/English translation of the above-

"4.3.3 DIN method The DING method is not known in practice and represents a former proposal from German broadcasting for a list of the equivalence stereophony NOS forms and should therefore be representative of the innumerable possibilities of a list with approximately equal proportions of level and transit time differences."
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline morst

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 11:38:13 AM »
My post above was just a poorly implemented reminder intended to get readers to consider acronym-named "equivalence stereo" configurations not as magical things in themselves which are unique and exist on their own terms, but rather as near-spaced microphone-pair configurations that gained historical recognition, are easy-to-implement and have proven useful.  Just hoping to lift the veil on the phenomena underlying it all for others in the same way that's proven insightful and useful for myself.
Whew! Now I feel a little better about my non-reproducible "throw and go" setups of my near-spaced microphone-pair configurations!!!


Sounds ok to me, and nobody has yet complained about the recorded angle on the finished FLAC files....
Merrick Garland *was* a compromise, and just look.

Offline if_then_else

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Re: so-called "DIN" stereo recording method(s)
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2020, 11:42:14 AM »
..identifying with this bit of the Googolic Latin/English translation of the above-

"4.3.3 DIN method The DING method is not known in practice and represents a former proposal from German broadcasting for a list of the equivalence stereophony NOS forms and should therefore be representative of the innumerable possibilities of a list with approximately equal proportions of level and transit time differences."


The DIN method hasn't been [widely] adopted in practice and is based on an initial proposal by the German radio broadcasting service for a near-coincident [respectively "mixed stereophony"] technique.

 

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