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Author Topic: Social Distancing Concert Taping  (Read 1051 times)

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Offline moondust.and.solitude

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Social Distancing Concert Taping
« on: August 15, 2020, 07:47:36 PM »
I see on a bunch of FB sites that shows are slowly being reintroduced to the masses (finally). It's a broad question, but which capsule setup works best for "distant" outdoor taping? Cardioid, Hypers, Omni???

Offline checht

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2020, 08:49:15 PM »
My .02: no cap is going to work like a zoom lens and make distant sources sound near. Hypercardioids  minimize nearby off-axis chatter/crowd noise compared to cards/omnis. For me, this allows me to focus more on the music, and gives a recording the impression of having been captured closer to the source.

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Offline moondust.and.solitude

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2020, 11:31:05 PM »
Thank you :)

Offline jefflester

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2020, 03:26:27 AM »
Shotguns baby!  :D

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Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2020, 05:16:12 AM »
You might consider a higher-order ambisonic microphone, like the Core Sound OctoMic. It offers every directivity pattern you can think of, plus many you've never considered. You can easily get shotguns, or even tighter.

Each  one can function as many microphones, each with a different directivity pattern, and each pointed in a different direction. The decisions are made in post-production, after recording. One gives you every possible coincident array techniquue. Use two (or more) for spaced arrays.

The directivity  patterns it offers are more precise and stable over frequency than even the best mono mics.

See www.core-sound.com/OctoMic/1.php
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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2020, 11:47:15 AM »
I see on a bunch of FB sites that shows are slowly being reintroduced to the masses (finally). It's a broad question, but which capsule setup works best for "distant" outdoor taping? Cardioid, Hypers, Omni???
put the mics up close and run long cables to your seat?
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Offline pillowman

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2020, 12:08:29 PM »
small acoustic concert in Germany
btw just turned the small speaker which was placed on stage into a more directional position for me  :shrug:
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2020, 10:48:55 AM »
[..] which capsule setup works best for "distant" outdoor taping? Cardioid, Hypers, Omni???
Wide spaced omnis when truly distant outdoors. Add directional mics as well (like supers or guns PAS) if you like, which can make for a  good combination yet are no substitute for a baseline of spaced omnis in such a situation. Distant indoors is an enclosed space and another matter.

As always, the best answer is to arrange things so as to place the mics in the most optimal spot when possible.  Even if that's not where you can remain yourself.  Second best answer is include a soundboard feed or stack/monitor/repeater close-mic channel.

If you want to get fancy I've found an array of mics placed in a line can provide a subtle almost zoom-like quality, possibly due to a bit of rudimentary "phased array" beam-forming.  With multiple microphones summed to the same channel (Left or Right), sound arriving perpendicular to the line arrives in phase at all microphones and sums constructively, while sound arriving off-axis from either side will have a more complex angle/spacing/frequency phase relationship.  I've noted apparent "distance reduction" when essentially using 3 mics (in which case 2 are summed each side) to 5 mics (3 summed each side) in this way.
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Offline checht

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2020, 11:00:16 AM »
...sound arriving perpendicular to the line arrives in phase at all microphones...
This is the part where I get confused. As the mics are presumably pretty centered in the venue, they are inside of the L & R stacks. Is the difference in arrival time because of lateral offset small enough to be insignificant?

Thanks, appreciate your posts!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2020, 01:41:32 PM »
There are a number of factors in play which correspond to the perception of distance or proximity in a recording and the microphone setup used- change in timbre with distance, change in stereo image width, change in the ratio of sound arriving directly verses by way of diffuse-arrival paths, differences in phase-correlation with angle of arrival, etc.  Presumably the intent is to get a recording made from a distant location to sound like it's closer than the position in which it was actually made, or at least reduce the perception of overly "far-away-ness"

Timbre-
Unlike directional microphones, the response of an omni doesn't change with distance from the source, so it is already ahead on that account.  And outdoors there is no issue with room size, modes, reflections and that kind of muddiness which can compromise the usefulness of a distant pair of omnis indoors.  This is why a pair of omnis makes for an excellent foundation for distant outdoor recording. [edit- some midrange "presence" EQing is often the secret sauce with distant omnis]

Image width-
The farther away the recording position is from the stage/PA, the smaller the apparent angle between the two PAs and outer edges of the stage as viewed from the recording location.  Because of that, as the recording position is moved farther and farther back, the spacing between microphones needs to be increased at the same time in order to maintain a similar apparent stereo image width between playback speakers.  This applies to microphones of any pattern, not just omnis.  Directional mics can be angled less far apart to achieve a similar effect on image width to some extent, but require an increase in pattern tightness to maintain sufficient differentiation between channels as the angle gets more narrow, and rapidly exceed the limit unless the spacing between them is not increased at the same time.  A larger A-B microphone spacing may worry folks due to the possibility of a "hole in the middle", but that becomes less and less of a problem with increased distance from the primary source of interest.  At more distant recording locations, more spacing can be used before the imaging for sounds arriving from either PA or stage edge extreme are pulled fully over to one playback speaker or the other. And if using an 3rd mic in the center, or a properly arranged pair, or three, or four, there is no worry about a hole-in-the-middle.

Change in the ratio of direct-arriving verses diffuse-path arrival sound-
From a close enough recording location pickup pattern can affects this, but can't do much about this from a distant recording location other than moving closer. 

Phase-correlation with angle of arrival-
We should probably stay focused on the other aspects and forget about this one!  It is also related to the spacing between microphones, yet more in terms of coherence and time-smear rather than in terms of left/right imaging.  Sound arriving perpendicular to the microphone elements in the array will have tight phase-correlation while sounds arriving from increasingly off axis will have increasingly different times of arrival.  This has a tendency to portray the on-axis stuff as clear and sharp across the entire frequency band and the off axis stuff as more diffuse.  With lots of microphone elements in the array we get a phased-array beam-forming antenna like effect.  How many? Although it probably doesn't correspond closely to antenna array theory using only a minimal number of microphones as discussed here, it certainly seems to be in effect to some extent in my listening.  Consider it as relating to the "big sound" of spaced omnis with regard to decorrelated reverberant and ambient pickup (non-perpendicular arriving sound), while achieving correlated pickup of the perpendicular arriving sound, but with potential increasing comb-filtering issues as additional elements are summed together.  [edit- I currently use 5 microphones (technically 6 if you count the side-channel of the center Mid/Side pair) for pickup of sound from the front in my big rig, and can hear what I believe to be a rudimentary form of this when listening while muting and un-muting some of those elements]
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 01:59:20 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jcable77

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2020, 03:22:57 PM »
Like GB said spaced omnis with hypercards works pretty good.
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Offline checht

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2020, 05:06:33 PM »
Thanks for the deep dive!
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Offline kindms

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2020, 06:49:33 PM »
my .02

We have done 2 shows ("drive in / marked blanket spots") now during Rona.

Both times we went prepared for taping from our spot. Each time we decided to walk a rig up close and leave it there.

IMHO the taping has been great as you can be fob low and no one really comes down front etc. BUT as the night goes on people will come down but nowhere near what you are used to. I had to play Defense the first show but not until late and the mics were low and not super obvious. People were pretty good when they realized why i was in that space.

a lot of these shows have cameras setup for streaming and large displays etc. Easy to drop a stand right behind theirs DFC and walk away. Most of these shows ask people to be masked away from their spots so easy to move around and get back to the rig etc

so FOB and stage lip have been WIDE open.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2020, 06:59:13 PM »
^ Haven't hit any of these myself, but was wondering about that angle.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kindms

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Re: Social Distancing Concert Taping
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2020, 07:35:33 PM »
^ Haven't hit any of these myself, but was wondering about that angle.

kung fu we were maybe 6ft from the stage about 4 / 5 ft high. breakfast 5ft about 30 ft but smaller shows. kung fu was more pro then breakfast. both were loose and folks were not paying any attention to us at all

so FWIW. but the idea of distance and sympathy for folks willing to come out I think will help the jedi for shows. but one was pro but private and the other official but super loose. so .... but drive in does add fun. For Fu we were prepared to run mathews on superclamps on the SUV car rails (deer antlers) but opted for the easy approach :) but I did leave the c426 unattended down front but could watch from afar
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