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Author Topic: New Taper here !  (Read 1567 times)

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Offline Schr

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2020, 03:57:28 PM »
With the FP24 setup > m10 ... would it be possible to power my microphone madness bsm-7s, or would I want to just directly power them via the m10? The website for those days they require a Voltage from 1.5 to 10 volts DC.

Not directly, but you can do so by using adapters that convert P48 (48V phantom power) to PIP (DC Plug In Power).  Those are typically barrel shaped and plug directly into the XLR inputs.  Alternately you could use a simple 9V battery box, which is inexpensive / simple to DIY.  That only powers the mics, yet with a more optimal voltage than the M10 provides, which typically increases the overload point and reduces distortion of loud material.

Ah ! This is what I’ve got! This is what I thought was a preamp but actually it’s just a 9v battery thing. It’s really noisy though.... is this something that could be fixed?

Offline Schr

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2020, 03:58:58 PM »
Chiming in to Welcome you! As we like to say, leave your wallet at the door to this hobby. (Although it's not as spendy as golf or boats)
We (kindms & I) use an M10 out of a MixPre (early Sound Devices pre-amp) which is functionally similar tot he FP24. It suree is a great pre-amp and can run for about 5 hours on its own AA"s. (Which I think the FP24 can as well?)
Another thing yet mentioned would be your external power. We have found a single USB power bank to handle almost 24 hours of recording with the MixPre>M10 combo using p48. (of course we run the M10 with internal AA'S as it runs forever on them)
I will come back to type in the brand for you.

Ace, thank you. I think primarily I will be using my CM3 for spot FX out and about (forest footsteps for example). I like the idea of using the USB bank but I suppose it does add to the clutter in someways.

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 04:05:04 PM »
Chiming in to Welcome you! As we like to say, leave your wallet at the door to this hobby. (Although it's not as spendy as golf or boats)
We (kindms & I) use an M10 out of a MixPre (early Sound Devices pre-amp) which is functionally similar tot he FP24. It suree is a great pre-amp and can run for about 5 hours on its own AA"s. (Which I think the FP24 can as well?)
Another thing yet mentioned would be your external power. We have found a single USB power bank to handle almost 24 hours of recording with the MixPre>M10 combo using p48. (of course we run the M10 with internal AA'S as it runs forever on them)
I will come back to type in the brand for you.

This Talentcell battery ran my FP-24 all day at festivals:

https://www.amazon.com/Talentcell-Rechargeable-6000mAh-Battery-Portable/dp/B00MF70BPU
Mics: nbobs/480+ck61/62/63; C568EB; MKE2
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 05:45:50 PM »
Ah ! This is what I’ve got! This is what I thought was a preamp but actually it’s just a 9v battery thing. It’s really noisy though.... is this something that could be fixed?

A 9V battery box is a passive component device (resistors and diodes only) and will not change the noise floor in itself, assuming it is working correctly and does not have a bad connection or is susceptible to EMI noise.  The noise is either the self-noise of the microphones, the gain stage of whatever they are feeding (presumably the M10), or the cabling picking up EMI.  If its steady, its probably not EMI. 

I suspect it is the self noise of the microphones.  Can do anything to improve that other than switching to quieter mics.

Note that there are PIP low-voltage preamps which provide gain, and being active gain devices they add some noise.  These are a common around TS for powering small mics as an alternative to a passive battery box, phantom adapters, or powering directly from the recorder.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2020, 05:48:26 PM »
We (kindms & I) use an M10 out of a MixPre (early Sound Devices pre-amp) which is functionally similar to the FP24.

I've not used both, but I believe they are identical.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Schr

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2020, 08:20:50 PM »
Ah ! This is what I’ve got! This is what I thought was a preamp but actually it’s just a 9v battery thing. It’s really noisy though.... is this something that could be fixed?

A 9V battery box is a passive component device (resistors and diodes only) and will not change the noise floor in itself, assuming it is working correctly and does not have a bad connection or is susceptible to EMI noise.  The noise is either the self-noise of the microphones, the gain stage of whatever they are feeding (presumably the M10), or the cabling picking up EMI.  If its steady, its probably not EMI. 

I suspect it is the self noise of the microphones.  Can do anything to improve that other than switching to quieter mics.

Note that there are PIP low-voltage preamps which provide gain, and being active gain devices they add some noise.  These are a common around TS for powering small mics as an alternative to a passive battery box, phantom adapters, or powering directly from the recorder.

It has not always been noisy,  I have a recording from using it several years ago that is very good quality. Thus I’ve probably broken it in some way ?

Offline aaronji

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2020, 06:19:27 AM »
The M10 can take a maximum of about 2 dBu on the mic input and about 24 dBu on the line input. See the links in this post:

DSatz and guysonic did some measurements about this years ago.  Basically, the mic input can handle ~ 2dBu and the line input can take ~ 24 dBu.  If you are below 0 dBFS with the gain at 1 (line) or ~ 1.5 - 2 (mic), you won't brickwall.  See these posts:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722931#msg1722931
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722942#msg1722942
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154969.msg2014600#msg2014600

What exactly does this mean? Does that mean the signal coming out of the preamp?

Yes, the signal going into the recorder can be pretty strong. The CM3 has a fairly low sensitivity (6 mV/Pa), so it will only be putting out about -1 dBu at their spec'ed maximum SPL (135 dB). You would have about 25 dB of gain that you could add between the pre and the recorder and still accommodate that sort of signal level (which you probably won't encounter much in practice unless you are close mic'ing loud stuff)...   
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Offline hoppedup

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2020, 09:36:58 AM »
90% of my recordings over the last 3 or 4 years have been AKG391>Tascam DR-60D. I have never owned a preamp for xlr mics. I have also run direct into a DR-40 and DR-70D. With the quality of inboard preamps and small recorders that provide phantom power, I'd just use mics directly into the Tascam. I'll probably never own an external preamp for xlr mics. YMMV.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2020, 09:55:07 AM »
I think the OP is doing soundscape or sound effects gathering which is why he is looking for quiet pre-amps. IMO the M10 fits the bill recorder wise and this noise Schr is describing is probably as gutbucket surmises. Self-noise with the mics/or battery box malfunction.
What are the specs on those mics Schr?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2020, 10:18:31 AM »
90% of my recordings over the last 3 or 4 years have been AKG391>Tascam DR-60D. I have never owned a preamp for xlr mics. I have also run direct into a DR-40 and DR-70D. With the quality of inboard preamps and small recorders that provide phantom power, I'd just use mics directly into the Tascam. I'll probably never own an external preamp for xlr mics. YMMV.

^ This is the strong argument for compact, portable, simplicity.  mics>mic cables>recorder

The CM3 has a fairly low sensitivity (6 mV/Pa), so it will only be putting out about -1 dBu at their spec'ed maximum SPL (135 dB). You would have about 25 dB of gain that you could add between the pre and the recorder and still accommodate that sort of signal level (which you probably won't encounter much in practice unless you are close mic'ing loud stuff)...   

^ And this is the reasoning for sufficient clean gain, provided by an external preamp or the recorder itself.

Following on rocksuitcase's soundspace/sound-effects gathering comment, to my way of thinking, "sound library population" implies a wide range of material and the need to accommodate a wide range of SPL dynamics - more so than live music taping, as the material presumably ranges from close mic'ing loud stuff, to close mic'ing of very quiet stuff to distant mic'ing of ambient stuff.  The dynamics of live music recording is generally more predictable and most often narrower.. excepting close mic'ing dynamic instruments.

If sound library population involves much "catch it the first time else you won't get it" situations without a lot of opportunity to set levels perfectly, capturing fast high-dynamic transients, etc, good analog limiters like those in the FP-24 or something similar may be important.  If there is the luxury of being able to determine optimal level settings prior to recording, good limiters may be less important.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 10:20:32 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2020, 10:21:08 AM »

If sound library population involves much "catch it the first time else you won't get it" situations without a lot of opportunity to set levels perfectly, capturing fast high-dynamic transients, etc, good analog limiters like those in the FP-24 or something similar may be important.  If there is the luxury of being able to determine optimal level settings prior to recording, good limiters may be less important.
This seems to be what the OP will be considering. I forgot about the actual loud noises or sounds which may be gathered in sound effects gathering.
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2020, 10:36:02 AM »
Yeah, to me a primary difference between effects recording and nature recording is the need to accommodate lots of relatively close mic'ing of crashes, bangs, plinks, gun-shots in addition to good low noise performance.

The caveat is that I'm an amateur music recordist with little expertise in either of those fields!  Schr, keep in mind that amateur live music recording is the primary background of most everyone offering advice here, so consider most of our suggestions in that light.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline voltronic

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2020, 12:47:16 PM »
Welcome, Schr!

I will add to the chorus of people recommending you buy the FP-24 DSatz is selling.  It's an amazing little unit, and runs a long time off a set of good AA rechargeable batteries (go for at least 2000 mAh).

A word of caution: Make sure you are using the 3.5 mm TAPE OUT to connect to the LINE IN on your M10; and not the XLR Line Out on the FP24.  That puts out a much hotter level which can overload the M10.


CM3 > FP24 > M10 is a solid combination I used for years (and still do on occasion).  These two tracks were recorded with that exact chain:

Mixed chamber choir; medium placement
HS women's choir; close placement (pardon the digital piano)

Also be sure to hit up the Team Line Audio thread for more info on those mics and related accessories.


Good luck, and happy taping!

-V
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 12:59:14 PM by voltronic »
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Offline Schr

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2020, 02:33:40 PM »
Thanks all for the great replies.

I think the OP is doing soundscape or sound effects gathering which is why he is looking for quiet pre-amps. IMO the M10 fits the bill recorder wise and this noise Schr is describing is probably as gutbucket surmises. Self-noise with the mics/or battery box malfunction.
What are the specs on those mics Schr?

BSM-7 specs:
Frequency response: 20- 20,000 Hz
Signal to noise ratio: 62dB, 1khz at 1pa
Open circuit sensitivity : -35dB (5.6 mv) re 1v at 1pa
Dynamic range: 95dB, 1kHz
Maximum Input Sound Level: 105dB SPL , 1kHz at 1%

Indeed it is a variety of dynamics that I record. They can be very loud bangs etc, or they can be the must subtle of sounds - say the quiet swish of silk or the subtle movement of jewellery.

The reason I absolutely LOVE sound devices for sound effects is the noise floor (I've mostly used a 702 but we had one of the bigger ones too). Sometimes we are busy performing sounds as well as recording them, and the inbuilt limiter is great for when we take our eye off the ball, but the low noise floor gives a lot of room for turning up in post-production.
 
When I bought my cm3 I probably should have bought a second matched one so they could double as general soundscape recording microphones. Alas I have the MM BMS-7s and I have actually really rated them in the past for what they can do for such a low price, so decided against it in the financial uncertainty of covid! I use those to record bird noise, general forest ambience and the like. Occasionally I wear them stealthily (probably like you guys in gigs) and walk around trying to capture general chit chat whether it be in pubs, libraries, out and about town etc! That worked excellently going from the 9v battery box into a Roland R26 (my favourite handheld recorder, sadly I do not own). I suspect the noise I am hearing is indeed the general sound of the microphones - it is also heard when plugging them straight into the m10's line input.


A word of caution: Make sure you are using the 3.5 mm TAPE OUT to connect to the LINE IN on your M10; and not the XLR Line Out on the FP24.  That puts out a much hotter level which can overload the M10.


Another question for all you all you m10er's in the know... with regards to setting the input gain to "4" when using with a preamp... is this with the recorder set to high or low mic sensitivity, or does that not matter when using the line in?


CM3 > FP24 > M10 is a solid combination I used for years (and still do on occasion).  These two tracks were recorded with that exact chain:

Mixed chamber choir; medium placement
HS women's choir; close placement (pardon the digital piano)

Sounds excellent!

The caveat is that I'm an amateur music recordist with little expertise in either of those fields!  Schr, keep in mind that amateur live music recording is the primary background of most everyone offering advice here, so consider most of our suggestions in that light.

Totally understood :) I am very much listening to the technical advice and combining it with my experience of sound effects recording in the past 5 years or so!

Offline morst

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2020, 05:50:52 PM »
Another question for all you all you m10er's in the know... with regards to setting the input gain to "4" when using with a preamp... is this with the recorder set to high or low mic sensitivity, or does that not matter when using the line in?
The PCM-M10 line in sensitivity is not affected by the mic sensitivity switch.
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