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Author Topic: New Taper here !  (Read 1565 times)

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Offline Schr

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New Taper here !
« on: September 16, 2020, 02:02:30 AM »
Hi everyone, hope this message finds everyone well in these highly unusually and worrisome times !

Apologies if this is in the wrong section, but I couldn’t find the appropriate place to introduce myself!

I am a professional sound editor and recording enthusiast. In my early days with audio technology I did a lot of studio and live recordings of bands as the person behind the desk, and eventually ended up with a career in sound which I love. I am a sound effects editor for TV and film.

I’ve done a lot of recording for work but am now in a situation where I can’t use the microphones and equipment that my company own as I work remotely (although currently on a Covid hiatus)  and so I am starting to build up my own simple rig, mainly for adding to my sound library.

I stumbled across this forum reading discussions in my search for an affordable pre amp that would suit my new Line Audio CM3, as my homemade one (which was gifted to me and I have no idea who actually made it!) outputs A LOT of noise. I can see there is a lot of audio knowledge here and I can’t wait to tap into it to improve my understanding and make better recordings. The other mics I have on hand right now are the microphone madness bsm-07.

I always have a Sony M10 in my pocket and I also own a Tascam DR100mk2, which doesn’t get much use as I don’t particularly rate it. I think the size, onboard mics and noise level of the m10 is fantastic. (I’m interested to read further into the a10 vs m10 argument).

There you have it, look forward to delving further into the site.

Cheers. 

Offline heathen

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2020, 12:38:46 PM »
Welcome.  I encourage you to check out the Yard Sale.  You may find just the preamp you're looking for there.  I think you can expect to have a much better buying experience here than somewhere like ebay or Craigslist.  As long as someone has good feedback you shouldn't hesitate to jump on a good deal.

In the "Team Boards" forum you will also find a thread dedicated to the Line Audio mics.  Lots of good knowledge there, including first-hand knowledge about preamps to use with the CM3s (Voltronic in particular is someone whose advice you should give a lot of weight when it comes to the CM3s).

Feel free to ask questions!
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2020, 01:04:34 PM »
I would recommend the Shure FP-24 in the Yard Sale. A ton of people here (including myself) have used them to make excellent recordings and I don't think you can do better for the price.

Dsatz is selling one in the thread linked below.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=194118.0
Mics: nbobs/480+ck61/62/63; C568EB; MKE2
Recorders: MP6; A10

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2020, 01:50:28 PM »
I would recommend the Shure FP-24 in the Yard Sale. A ton of people here (including myself) have used them to make excellent recordings and I don't think you can do better for the price.

Dsatz is selling one in the thread linked below.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=194118.0

was gonna say this after reading the OP but you beat me to it. great performance for the money
People whose posts I wont see:
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Offline Schr

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2020, 01:52:29 PM »
That’s awesome ! Thank you both !

The FP24 looks great and I can see it’s very popular in this board. If my set up was a cm3 > FP24 > M10 would that be sufficient for doing decent recordings ? I have seen people with longer chains than this, but my preference would be to keep it to a minimum.

I also saw someone selling an ART phantom power supply, and I was curious if this would provide a the mic with power it needed (reviews seem to say that it provides a clear sound) for a much lower price?

Cheers all  :)

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2020, 01:58:55 PM »
That’s awesome ! Thank you both !

The FP24 looks great and I can see it’s very popular in this board. If my set up was a cm3 > FP24 > M10 would that be sufficient for doing decent recordings ? I have seen people with longer chains than this, but my preference would be to keep it to a minimum.

I also saw someone selling an ART phantom power supply, and I was curious if this would provide a the mic with power it needed (reviews seem to say that it provides a clear sound) for a much lower price?

Cheers all  :)

If it supplies 48v, it should work with the CM3 mics. However, you'll then be relying on the M10's preamps, which are generally regarded as sufficient. Depending on what you're recording, they may be a bit noisy if gain is cranked. The FP-24 will stay clean throughout.
Mics: nbobs/480+ck61/62/63; C568EB; MKE2
Recorders: MP6; A10

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2020, 02:16:05 PM »
go with the FP24, small handhelds like the M10 sound great with a hot line signal

you'll have to experiment a bit to determine the input clip level of the M10 (use a sine wave fed to the FP24 and experiment with increasing the gain with the FP24 and decreasing the input

this review says the input is 'rated' for 2.0V input (assuming thats RMS, thats +8dBu which sounds about right for a handheld

this review is kinda confusing but look at the input level chart about halfway down in the review
https://kenrockwell.com/audio/sony/pcm-m10.htm

according to that the 2V/+8dBu input level is at 4 on the PCM-M10

the 3.5mm TRS 'tape out' on the FP24 clips at +11dBu so thats a near perfect match for an M10
https://pubs.shure.com/guide/FP24/en-US
People whose posts I wont see:
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Offline heathen

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2020, 02:21:07 PM »
CM3 > FP24 > M10 is an excellent rig, and DSatz is a good person to deal with.
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 02:53:54 PM »
Welcome aboard the Taperssection ship of fools!

[snip..]sound effects editor for TV and film.

[..snip..] I am starting to build up my own simple rig, mainly for adding to my sound library.

I too think the Shure a better fit for your stated primary use of populating your sound library.

If you need to keep your costs low and were are only taping concerts from the audience, the ART would likely be fine.  It is not nearly as solidly constructed as the Shure, and as a phantom-only supply it will power the microphones, but that's all it does. It will work fine for louder material where not much gain is needed and for things where its good analog limiters and high-pass filtering are not needed. 

For recording low level sounds cleanly without noise the FP24 preamp will be superior in that it provides lots of gain with a low noise floor, particularly needed if you ever use dynamic mics.  It's professional grade equipment that is built like a tank and provides other functions which are likely to be useful for your stated use, primarily it's high-quality analog limiter circuit and switchable high-pass filters, which helps accommodate highly dynamic sounds (bangs, crashes, sirens, gunshots, trains..) and windy outdoor conditions.  If you monitor using headphones while recording, it is also very well setup for doing that.  In addition, it represents "accepted kit" in the professional sound world, and is a buy once, use forever type of thing.

Personally I'd go with the Shure.. or look at new recorders (other than your Tascam DR100mk2) that provide phantom, sufficent clean gain, and the features and user-interaction you desire.  Give that second option some thought if compactness of the rig and simplicity of setup (mics>mic-cables>recorder) is particularly important.



musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Schr

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 03:34:13 PM »
go with the FP24, small handhelds like the M10 sound great with a hot line signal

you'll have to experiment a bit to determine the input clip level of the M10 (use a sine wave fed to the FP24 and experiment with increasing the gain with the FP24 and decreasing the input

this review says the input is 'rated' for 2.0V input (assuming thats RMS, thats +8dBu which sounds about right for a handheld

this review is kinda confusing but look at the input level chart about halfway down in the review
https://kenrockwell.com/audio/sony/pcm-m10.htm

according to that the 2V/+8dBu input level is at 4 on the PCM-M10

the 3.5mm TRS 'tape out' on the FP24 clips at +11dBu so thats a near perfect match for an M10
https://pubs.shure.com/guide/FP24/en-US

Excellent, thank you for that information! Does indeed seem to be a good match.

With the FP24 setup > m10 ... would it be possible to power my microphone madness bsm-7s, or would I want to just directly power them via the m10? The website for those days they require a Voltage from 1.5 to 10 volts DC.

Thanks for your replies everyone, already starting to feel like I’m getting my head around this more.  Many, many thanks.

Offline aaronji

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2020, 03:38:42 PM »
The M10 can take a maximum of about 2 dBu on the mic input and about 24 dBu on the line input. See the links in this post:

DSatz and guysonic did some measurements about this years ago.  Basically, the mic input can handle ~ 2dBu and the line input can take ~ 24 dBu.  If you are below 0 dBFS with the gain at 1 (line) or ~ 1.5 - 2 (mic), you won't brickwall.  See these posts:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722931#msg1722931
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722942#msg1722942
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154969.msg2014600#msg2014600
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 03:43:41 PM »
thanks for digging that up. +22dBU is outstanding for a handheld. The A10 is like +11dBu
People whose posts I wont see:
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Offline Schr

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 03:50:41 PM »
The M10 can take a maximum of about 2 dBu on the mic input and about 24 dBu on the line input. See the links in this post:

DSatz and guysonic did some measurements about this years ago.  Basically, the mic input can handle ~ 2dBu and the line input can take ~ 24 dBu.  If you are below 0 dBFS with the gain at 1 (line) or ~ 1.5 - 2 (mic), you won't brickwall.  See these posts:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722931#msg1722931
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722942#msg1722942
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154969.msg2014600#msg2014600

What exactly does this mean? Does that mean the signal coming out of the preamp?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 03:53:13 PM »
With the FP24 setup > m10 ... would it be possible to power my microphone madness bsm-7s, or would I want to just directly power them via the m10? The website for those days they require a Voltage from 1.5 to 10 volts DC.

Not directly, but you can do so by using adapters that convert P48 (48V phantom power) to PIP (DC Plug In Power).  Those are typically barrel shaped and plug directly into the XLR inputs.  Alternately you could use a simple 9V battery box, which is inexpensive / simple to DIY.  That only powers the mics, yet with a more optimal voltage than the M10 provides, which typically increases the overload point and reduces distortion of loud material. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: New Taper here !
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2020, 03:55:57 PM »
Chiming in to Welcome you! As we like to say, leave your wallet at the door to this hobby. (Although it's not as spendy as golf or boats)
We (kindms & I) use an M10 out of a MixPre (early Sound Devices pre-amp) which is functionally similar to the FP24. It sure is a great pre-amp and can run for about 5 hours on its own AA"s. (Which I think the FP24 can as well?)
Another thing yet mentioned would be your external power. We have found a single USB power bank to handle almost 24 hours of recording with the MixPre>M10 combo using p48. (of course we run the M10 with internal AA'S as it runs forever on them)
I will come back to type in the brand for you. Talentcell 8300. My apologies as well, I didn't realize you were looking for internal power only. M10/FP24 (or MixPre) fits the bill fer sure. Most folks around here dig the eneloop rechargaeable AA's.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 09:49:59 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

 

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