Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics  (Read 376 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GroundHog420

  • (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1182
    • Sonic Archives
Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« on: November 01, 2020, 08:44:47 PM »
RE: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics

I'd like to throw this question out there for anyone who might be more familiar with this unit than I am:

Reading the manual, it *seems* that the onboard mics are cardioids (*unidirectional* is how they're described), but if you move them outward for the *wide* stereo sound, somehow that seems like the phase differential wouldn't work like that for cards, since that configuration seems to try and emulate a pair of omnis. I'm sure it's not rocket science, but am I missing something there?

Thanks for anyone who might be able to share their insight on this!
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

Offline jerryfreak

  • (31)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5455
  • The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2020, 08:57:45 PM »
RE: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics

I'd like to throw this question out there for anyone who might be more familiar with this unit than I am:

Reading the manual, it *seems* that the onboard mics are cardioids (*unidirectional* is how they're described), but if you move them outward for the *wide* stereo sound, somehow that seems like the phase differential wouldn't work like that for cards, since that configuration seems to try and emulate a pair of omnis. I'm sure it's not rocket science, but am I missing something there?

Thanks for anyone who might be able to share their insight on this!

ill let some more equipped people chime in, but from my understanding, the more directional a mic is, the less important spacing is

People whose posts I wont see:
 capnhook, daspyknows, Melanie, morst, Rob D., Scooter123, Sloan Simpson, Walstib62, Dr. Bickart

Offline GroundHog420

  • (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1182
    • Sonic Archives
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2020, 11:52:08 PM »
Hey there Jer -

First of all, this was never intended to be a serious technical question.

All I was asking was for someone to confirm whether the mics on a DR-40 were actual cards or not (since the manual never actually uses that term), and if a wide pan would work against me when taping; but some sneaky pete decided to report me to daspy because they thought it wasn’t right that I asked a question about the deck I was trying to buy, which just needed a simple answer, so I could put a few dollars in Dave’s pocket.

*Now* it’s apparently a technical question. Sheesh. The power of the internet, empowering anonymous humans everywhere. Good for that. And TS used to have such a community feel....

Anyway... I get what you’re saying, but the way the mics are described in the manual kind of doesn't make a lot of sense, the way it reads, anyway.

As the mics are set up on the DR-40, it's a basic X-Y configuration, nothing unusual there; but to move them 90 degrees outwards just seems to *invite* phasing.

Yes, I understand that at 110 degrees outward, it’s basically a traditional ORTF configuration, but that can depend on so many things, and typically, isn’t ORTF more of an omni configuration? At 120 degrees it sure would be, and that isn’t far off from the 110 degree spread.

Anyway, the question isn’t even really about mics, or about one config vs another, or anything like that. I just wanted to buy the deck Dave is selling, and before I committed to the purchase, I was hoping another DR-40 user might be able to shed a wee bit of light of what I was seeing in the manual for the unit.

At this point, I reckon I’ll just buy it regardless, and waste a little time experimenting. If it doesn’t work for me, I can just give it away to someone, since it seems that some folks want to change the old friendly feel of our old TS community by reporting things they don’t like. Any bets as to how long it takes before this one gets reported?

And some people wonder why some of us old school tapers don’t post her more often....
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

Offline jerryfreak

  • (31)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5455
  • The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2020, 12:35:58 AM »
i think its safe to say that 'unidirectional' is vague, but certainly distinct from 'omnidirectional'
People whose posts I wont see:
 capnhook, daspyknows, Melanie, morst, Rob D., Scooter123, Sloan Simpson, Walstib62, Dr. Bickart

Offline GroundHog420

  • (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1182
    • Sonic Archives
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2020, 12:42:49 AM »
Well, to those of us who tape, I would think so, but honestly, I've not seen a whole lot of evidence to support the idea that manufacturers like Tascam, Sony, etc, are speaking the same language we use in the field, y'know...  sometimes a deception isn't the opposite of truth, but an *omission* of truth....  I think quite a few tapers might have a shared experience in that once the company gets our money, we're mostly on our own - which is why places like TapersSection have grown to be so important.

i think its safe to say that 'unidirectional' is vague, but certainly distinct from 'omnidirectional'
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

Offline jerryfreak

  • (31)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5455
  • The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2020, 01:12:45 AM »
sorry man, tried to help.... i feel you will be hard pressed to find a third party measurement of a tascam built-in mic.

you may be able to identify if it is directional by measuring a known source on and off axis

quantifying the exact pattern without sophisticated measuring equipment is almost impossible
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 01:15:14 AM by jerryfreak »
People whose posts I wont see:
 capnhook, daspyknows, Melanie, morst, Rob D., Scooter123, Sloan Simpson, Walstib62, Dr. Bickart

Offline vanark

  • TDS
  • (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 7645
  • If you ain't right, you better get right!
    • The Mudboy Grotto - North Mississippi Allstar fan site
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2020, 06:38:58 AM »
Page 9 of the manual refers to them as cardioid.

https://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/872/e_dr-40_rm_vb.pdf
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 07:27:12 AM by vanark »
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at etree(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

Link to LMA Recordings

Link to Team Dirty South Recordings on the LMA

Mics: Microtech Gefell M21 (with Nbob actives) | Church Audio CA-11 (cards) (with CA UBB)
Pres: <empty>
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D | Tascam DR-40 | Sony PCM-A10

Offline GroundHog420

  • (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1182
    • Sonic Archives
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2020, 12:57:13 PM »
Well, that just underlined the need for a second set of eyes to help with some of these things... Not sure how I missed it before, but thanks for pointing that out!

With that sorted, then, I reckon it all comes down to the mix, in order to determine an accurate stereo image, although I'd probably lean on the X-Y config for those mics, and play around with a second set of mics (or line-in signal) to fill out the the breath of the space I'd be recording in.

Sorry if this sounds obtuse to some of you, but to me it just seems weird to pan a set of cards wide in that manner (ORTF), I'm used to seeing that with omnis, but with cards on their own, it seems that you'd really have to find the sweet spot to record from. Well, I've always managed to develop a reputation in my old circles as someone who didn't exactly do things in a conventional manner... I guess I'll be doing a bit more experimenting, then!

Thanks for the input, jerryfreak and vanark!

 - - - -

Page 9 of the manual refers to them as cardioid.

https://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/872/e_dr-40_rm_vb.pdf
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

Offline vanark

  • TDS
  • (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 7645
  • If you ain't right, you better get right!
    • The Mudboy Grotto - North Mississippi Allstar fan site
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2020, 01:35:57 PM »
In close proximity, I generally prefer to pan my cards and hypercards at angles greater than 90*. Doesn't seem odd to me at all. YMMV.

For omnis, being omnidirectional, what angle you use is mostly (all?) meaningless and generally an A-B method (point them forward) is used. Spacing and baffling may be helpful in some situation, but afaik, directionality should not be an issue.
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at etree(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

Link to LMA Recordings

Link to Team Dirty South Recordings on the LMA

Mics: Microtech Gefell M21 (with Nbob actives) | Church Audio CA-11 (cards) (with CA UBB)
Pres: <empty>
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D | Tascam DR-40 | Sony PCM-A10

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 13859
  • Gender: Male
  • Gunther Theile nailed it!
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2020, 01:44:24 PM »
To hopefully clarify a bit further-

ORTF is a specific stereo pair arrangement which requires cardioids (well matched, small diameter) spaced 17cm and angled 110 degrees apart.  If using a different polar pattern, or a different spacing/angle combination, its not ORTF.

Coincident stereo microphone pair arrangements such as X/Y and Mid/Side require the use of microphones with a sufficiently directional pickup pattern and sufficient angle between them to generate the stereo difference information between the two channels.  Because the stereo aspects rely solely on level differences between channels, they for the most part require the use or microphones with a cardioid or greater directivity.

Near-spaced stereo pair configurations (ORTF, NOS, DIN, etc) work based on the directivity of the microphones and the angle between them, but do so in combination with time-of-arrival differences generated by the spacing between microphones.  They rely on both aspects for producing stereo difference information.  Because they are not solely reliant on level differences they can use microphones with somewhat more open directivity (such as subcardoids) in addition to what is used for coincident pair arrangement.

Omni's, being non-directional, require significantly more spacing or some sort of baffle between them which makes them semi-directional in order to achieve good stereo difference information - generally 30cm or more, better about 1m.  More directional micrphones can also be used at such wide spacings by using a narrower angle between them than would be used with a near-spaced or coincident arrangement using the same microphones.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 01:46:48 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline WiFiJeff

  • (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 876
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2020, 01:59:17 PM »
To hopefully clarify a bit further-

ORTF is a specific stereo pair arrangement which requires cardioids (well matched, small diameter) spaced 17cm and angled 110 degrees apart.  If using a different polar pattern, or a different spacing/angle combination, its not ORTF.


Schoeps makes not only an STC mount for cardioids mounted ORTF, but STC 22 and STC 21 mounts WHICH SCHOEPS CALLS ORTF for those mic patterns (MK22 and 21) at different separations.

So I suppose the terminology is not as standardized as you might wish.

Jeff


Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 13859
  • Gender: Male
  • Gunther Theile nailed it!
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2020, 02:04:38 PM »
That's colloquial usage which unfortunately confuses things, sort of like the use of "phase" when what is meant is "polarity". Better to just say near-spaced, or more specifically, 17cm/90-degrees so there is no confusion.  ORTF was defined by the Office de Radiodiffusion Télévision Française as using cardioid pattern microphones.

As the mics are set up on the DR-40, it's a basic X-Y configuration, nothing unusual there; but to move them 90 degrees outwards just seems to *invite* phasing.

My bold above.  I think you mean to space them apart not angle them outwards.  The microphones are angled 90 degrees apart in both configurations AFAIK.  Some "phasing" does happen and is expected.  It is one aspect of introducing time-of-arrival differences between channels.

Quote
[...]isn’t ORTF more of an omni configuration? At 120 degrees it sure would be, and that isn’t far off from the 110 degree spread.

You seem to be confusing the overall collective sensitivity of the two channel microphone array (imagine the two channels were being summed to mono) with the directionality of each microphone on its own.  The two channels are kept independent of each other until reproduction.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline GroundHog420

  • (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1182
    • Sonic Archives
Re: Question about Tascam DR-40 on-board mics
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2020, 02:44:24 PM »
Whew! I am definitely getting some remedial learning in today! Thanks for all the info, everyone!

I probably *do* tend to confuse terms like "phase" and "polarity", "angle" and "space", and so forth.
I became an accidental taper / archivist in the early '80s, solely as a means to capture a rapidly changing music scene in my old hometown.
I was young, dumb, and poor, and worked with whatever gear I could afford, beg or borrow.

Around the same time, a band I was in started recording in what would have been at the time a cutting edge digital studio.
Ad to that, working in a music venue and getting hands-on training on some very old analog sound systems....

Suffice it to say, none of the folks in any of those circles used the same language - or methodology - and I ended up with a mish-mash vocabulary that no doubt added to the confusion.

Much of what I consider my *serious* taping wasn't done with miniature decks and mics, but more along the lines of trying to approximate what I was learning in the studios and venues where I worked, and miking specifically for recording, in addition to live sound reinforcement. Most of my peers reckoned I was nuts, but the results generally stood on their own (most of the time, anyway...)

I'm just getting re-acquainted with using miniature recording decks these days, oddly enough, during a time when none of us are going out to record live music anywhere, but it seemed like something I could use for a few projects of my own. So if a lot of my questions seems completely out of left field, they probably are, because I've never really relied on using this type of gear for the kind of recordings I make. I reckon I'm learning everything backwards, but there ya go.

Thanks again for all the info!
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.054 seconds with 41 queries.
© 2002-2020 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF