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Author Topic: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder  (Read 264429 times)

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Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #255 on: July 18, 2024, 08:55:33 AM »
They also relase a firmware update  ::) https://deitymic.com/firmware/
looks like one file. it will either autodetect the us version and leave it crippled (my guess), or it will flash all to be full featured

perhaps someone can hex-edit the .bin in the former case (at risk of bricking the device of course)


Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #256 on: July 18, 2024, 08:57:54 AM »
They also relase a firmware update  ::) https://deitymic.com/firmware/
does your unit pass signal when recording? or did you get a US model?

Offline Psinka

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #257 on: July 18, 2024, 09:05:02 AM »
does your unit pass signal when recording? or did you get a US model?

I got non US model 100% )
I can check signal passing when return home in about 4-5 hours

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #258 on: July 18, 2024, 09:08:23 AM »
I got non US model 100% )

how are they distinguished?

Offline Psinka

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #259 on: July 18, 2024, 09:20:27 AM »
That's the wrong manual, even tho it's what deity links to from the pr2 page.

On product page for PR-2 US https://deitymic.com/products/pr-2-us/ we cqan find correct manual https://deitymic.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/PR-2-manual-EN.pdf

UPD: they fixed links on booth pages)

Offline unidentified

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #260 on: July 18, 2024, 10:43:12 AM »
If this had floating 32-bit in stereo I would get it in a heartbeat. But since it doesn't, there's no way I would get it

Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #261 on: July 18, 2024, 11:02:06 AM »
Strange, the link that I saved was correct, I think I fudged it in the copy/paste... My bad

I'd like to hear something 32bit from it!
And a few solid opinions

I was sort of joking about the Velcro, and I assume everything good would come in post, after a 32bit capture.
So any good powered mic set in, and the magic in the DAW.
Ultimately better in that preamp modeling allows a pivot to the best/preferred sound.

I doubt it is brickable, most modern electronics will boot-load from media that is formated and configured properly.
My worry would be in obtaining that from support, and how strong communication will be.

They certainly have solutions in mind


Speaking of preamp modeling....
Has anyone put out filters that represent the Neve, Apogee, SoundDevices family for "coloration"
Obviously, purity cannot be synthesized....
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #262 on: July 18, 2024, 03:13:16 PM »
I'm looking at the Deity recorder, not for concert recording but for interviews and so on. I've downloaded the manual (unfortunately way too large a file to attach here) and will read it through before deciding. I'd need to get a new pair of microphones to use solely with it, which I don't look forward to, or else work out some sort of adapter for a pair of Schoeps capsules on active cables. All in all, it's at most a maybe.

-- I don't want to be tedious and pedantic, but in this this thread many people have mentioned 32-bit recording as being an attraction of this type of recorder. I think they may misunderstand what that feature can and can't give you. Just to keep it brief, Deity's claim:

> 32-bit float means you’ll always have perfect gain staging

... is misleading and wrong, but an interesting choice of misstatement since it caters to the illusion that many people seem to have. I've extracted the specs from Deity's manual; they're attached below. Please note the s/n spec, which is about that of a typical 16-bit recorder. Note that even that spec is achieved only if the preamp gain is set to a rather unlikely value.

"32-bit float" is a data format--a way of storing the sample values that come out of an A/D converter. That converter will have a certain noise floor and maximum output level given the circuit it is in; the best available converters can give ~22 bits of range between that floor and that ceiling. The 32-bit encoder then takes this (less-than-24-bit) output from the converter and translates the linear PCM samples into a floating-point binary format for storage. But no encoding of those sample values, no matter how many bits it uses, can possibly have any greater dynamic range than the A/D converter that provided them. Thus the fact that the 32-bit float data format (in the abstract) has its own, much wider dynamic range is irrelevant.

For analog microphones, any digital recorder has to have an analog mike preamp followed by an A/D converter. A given pair of microphones in a given recording situation will produce a noise floor and a peak output voltage; both will vary according to the sensitivity and noise of the microphones, and the loudest and softest sounds that occur. There's a huge amount of variation among those things--no one preset gain for a mike preamp can possibly cover all situations optimally. If that gain is too low, the input noise of the preamp may exceed the noise contained in the signal from the microphones; if it's too high, overload can occur in the preamp and/or the A/D. The fact that the A/D's output is then translated into a 32-bit data format has NO EFFECT on that situation, since it comes into play only once the numeric sample values come out of the A/D converter.

What's required, ironically, is proper gain staging--the thing that the ads say is guaranteed to be "perfect" because of the 32-bit data format, but in fact isn't guaranteed at all.

[Edited later to add: The lack of a "pass-through" feature in the U.S. version of this product means that once you start recording, you can't hear anything through the headphone jack. It reminds me of two-head versus three-head analog tape recorders, except that this is like zero-head; the meters move, but you don't know what you're getting. I don't know whether that cutoff occurs in pause mode or not. If it does, then I'm no longer interested in this recorder at all, since to set up for recording you'd have to record a test, then play it back separately; there'd be no adjusting the microphone position while listening in real time.]
« Last Edit: July 18, 2024, 03:28:38 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline aaronji

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #263 on: July 18, 2024, 05:13:48 PM »
^ As far as I know, the 32-bit float "no gain staging needed" thing is actually a product of using multiple gain-ranged ADCs, operating on overlapping bands of input, and stitched back together using regression based algorithms. I believe this to be true, at least, for the SD MixPre series. The 32-bit FP "bucket" is useful for this, because it creates a broad range into which the (max) 24-bit recording can occupy. My 2 cents and all...

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #264 on: July 18, 2024, 05:51:48 PM »
all valid poitns dsatz. i too am off the wagon for a US version as my use case is stealth and im always actively monitoring so i can dodge the talkers. given the cost, if i had a use for this i would seek out a grey model non-us version, warranty be damned.

32-bit is the last feature i look for in a recorder, i rarely use it in the 32 bit devices i have now unless it is 100% remote/unattended. Your read of the specs is correct, i saw some RMAA measurement of this device and its in the low 80s in dynamic range, and again thats at optimum line-in level staging*. 24 bit word is more than enough to contain its resolution on its best day

*the tester was using a source with +6dBU max out. assumedly the specified dynamic range is at +18dbU input. My best guess with a mic in signal based on the limited data i have is a dynamic range in the upper 60s to mid 70s, certainly nothing approaching state-of-the-art

id fully test it but im leery to drop $250 on something i probably wouldnt be keeping
« Last Edit: July 18, 2024, 06:00:16 PM by breakonthru »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #265 on: July 18, 2024, 06:20:19 PM »
The scheme by which a recorder handles the input signal through the ADC is one thing. The file format that is saved is another entirely different thing.

32bit float is the output file format.  That alone tells us very little about the recorder.  The industry choosing to use "32-bit float recording" as the way of describing and marketing this new class of digital recorders is quite unfortunate, and in my opinion verges on misleading.  What happens ahead of the file format is the important part and what should really be better explained by the manufacturers. A good name for that is how this class of recorders should be described.  Maybe extended input range functionality or something.  Others will come up with better descriptions I'm sure.

All recorders using this approach essentially do the same thing by automatically switching between several separate internal signal chains, each of which is optimized for a particular range of signal levels.  Each path is essentially a separate preamp > ADC channel. Prior to the internal preamp>ADC channel thats internally gain-staged to provide best low-level performance overloads, the recorder switches to using the output from a separate internal preamp>ADC channel which has been gain-staged to handle higher level signals.  The output is stitched back together (which is the tricky part) before being written to the output file format.  The written output format might be 32-bit float, 24bit fixed, MP3 or whatever. 

In this particular recorder, I suspect the reason it is only able to record a single channel when using the extended input range functionality is because there are only two preamp>ADC paths available.  When in stereo mode each input channel uses one signal path, when in mono mode the single input channel uses both. 

I suspect the 90dB s/n spec reflects each individual preamp>ADC channel, while the EIN -130dBu (A-weighting +30dB @ 150ohm) spec, and the Dynamic Range 123dB typ(32-bit Float) spec, reflects the the combined extended input range made available by switching between both 90dB S/N input>ADC circuits, and stitching their outputs back together again.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2024, 06:34:29 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #266 on: July 18, 2024, 06:31:22 PM »
I might pick one up just to have an easy way for a friend to record something while I'm away in Sept. But for my own more dedicated use I'm awaiting a good technical review with measurements of stereo mode performance, a few recorded music audio samples, and confirmation that multiple units can be: 1) reliably controlled simultaneously from a phone, and 2) clock sync'd to a sufficient degree of precision. I expect I'll probably need to confirm 2) myself.

I don't really care about the 32-bit float feature, as long as performance in stereo mode meets or exceeds that of the Tascam DR2d in 24/48. Unfortunately, as discussed above, dynamic range performance in stereo mode is not clearly specified, so I await actual measurements.  If it pans out, I'll be in for two of these to replace 4ch-CA-UGLY> DR2d, with the potential to expand to 3 or 4. 

The info Deity has posted about remote control of multiple units via the Sidus Audio app looks good, but I need to contact them to ask more about what is required for clock-sync. Hoping a phone running the app connecting to the PR-2s is all that will be required, but I'm guessing I may also need a Deity TC-1 wireless timecode generator.  TC-1 is small, inexpensive, and wireless, but I rather not deal with and additional device in pocket and its batteries.

Working my current rig down to 2 small, dedicated audio devices (4ch_CA-Ugly > DR2d) was a challenge that took years.   This is the first new setup that may be capable of practically replacing it.  If TC-1 is not required, the dedicated audio device in pocket count remains the same, while the two devices are significantly smaller and easier to stealth (I'm not counting the phone as a dedicated audio device as it will only be used for control, not storage, and it gets carried along either way). 

If I need TC-1 to sync multiple units effectively, that will require carrying an additional (but smaller) box, but at least no additional wires which is the bigger hassle.  Recording 6 channels would need four dedicated audio devices, yet they would collectively take up about the same pocket space as my current 4ch rig, and would probably be a better form factor.

Lack of pass-through in the US version is unfortunate, yet not really a deal killer for my use.   Its helpful when trouble-shooting, but use primarily entails recording without monitoring and assessing the results later.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2024, 06:47:19 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #267 on: July 18, 2024, 06:51:43 PM »
I'm sure that I've seen this here before, but:
https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-float-files-explained/

More dynamic range than the moon to the earth....

I agree, the analogue Preamps won't get much better than 80 - 90 DB in any $250 product
And even that is generous, but all I need is about 40 - 50 DB of headroom for a really smashing live recording.
I'd lie if I didn't say that I sometimes normalize when live mastering, after NR.
Sometimes it just sounds better loud

In a dead-quiet studio, life and settings are different

And, will a $250 box ever even approach the SD method and algorithms ?
"Float" is the key, 32bits is easy, finding "zero" the "art and soul" of the machine.
    'art... punning'
« Last Edit: July 18, 2024, 06:59:48 PM by Chilly Brioschi »
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Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #268 on: July 18, 2024, 09:17:57 PM »
I don't really care about the 32-bit float feature, as long as performance in stereo mode meets or exceeds that of the Tascam DR2d in 24/48.

that would be a bar for sure. the DR2d is one of the cleaner handhelds out there and tops its sony and edirol counterparts in dynamic range when measured

Offline DSatz

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #269 on: July 18, 2024, 09:37:56 PM »
aaronji wrote:
> ^ As far as I know, the 32-bit float "no gain staging needed" thing is actually a product of using multiple gain-ranged ADCs, operating on overlapping bands of input, and stitched back together using regression based algorithms.

That would work only if multiple, gain-ranged mike preamps were linked to those multiple gain-ranged ADCs. It's not impossible, but I would never simply assume that a recorder (especially a low-cost one) has such a feature. Otherwise the gain of the mike preamp needs to be user-adjustable, and the user needs to take care to set it more or less optimally, just as with conventional record levels. If a recorder doesn't have one or the other, and users are crowing about how it never overloads, then you can pretty solidly infer that some users are making noisier recordings than necessary, despite however many bits the audio (plus preamp noise) is being recorded with.

[edited later to point out:] If a recorder had the kind of gain-ranging stuff built in that people here seem to imagine that they do, they would have signal-to-noise ratios on the order of 120 dB or better, measured analog in to digital out. But they don't. Similarly, if that type of technology were readily available at low cost, why don't we see a new generation of combination mike preamps / A/D converter units with signal-to-noise ratios several orders of magnitude better than anything that's been on the market before? They would easily outperform all existing separate preamps and converters, and all existing combination units of the older generation (Lunatec V3, Sound Devices MixPre-D, etc.) by tens of decibels. All older equipment would be massively obsolete overnight--and if that's happened, I'm not aware of it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2024, 11:23:47 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

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