Topic: MK41 config

[rocksuitcase]

Topic = XY hypercardioids.
I don't speak Schoeps, but I gather the MK4's are hypercardioids?
If so, then our experience MANY years ago recording the Grateful Dead plays in here. We wanted to do AUD recordings from FOH, about 40-50 feet from stage and asked our mentor,,,,, a studio engineer, former FOH guy. He said Hyperss in XY will reduce some rear crowd noise, add some center balance and that is what we used for almost 100 shows. (Beyer M201) Many heads were enamored of the sound of these recordings, some would ask, "is this a soundboard"? especially the ones where we were about 40 feet from the stacks, DFC. Years later, a taping buddy had moved to Denver, made friends with Mark Nutter and started seriously buying microphones etc. He calls me one night and says, "hey, you know those XY recordings we made all those years ago don't have very much stereo separation?" So I Say, This is/was true, but can you recall ever listening to one and thinking it sounded "wrong"? No, because that up front XY hyper sound on the recordings of the Ultrasound PA was so righteous.
XY CAN be useful in certain situations, don't let a book tell you otherwise.

e.g.: https://archive.org/details/gd1983-05-14.141945.beyerm201.executivecrew-holbrook.flac2448

[grawk]

41s are the hypers.

Personally, I'm glad there are lots of people recording in lots of ways.  Gives you examples to listen to and decide where to start your own experiments...

I ran sub/8 mid side for a few years 25 years ago, which is mathematically the same as xy subs.  Was a good sound.  Now I tend to run subs or hypers DIN or DINa.

[DSatz]

MK 41 is a supercardioid, which has a narrower front pickup pattern than a cardioid but wider than that of a hypercardioid. See chart below.

Very, very few microphones are real hypercardioids, even if they're called that by their manufacturers. The pattern just isn't optimal for most applications. Most microphones (or capsules) that are called hypercardioids are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid, and quite often are closer to the supercardioid side of the line.

[morst]

Very, very few microphones are real hypercardioids, even if they're called that by their manufacturers. The pattern just isn't optimal for most applications. Most microphones (or capsules) that are called hypercardioids are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid, and quite often are closer to the supercardioid side of the line.

Not that it helps us in terms of concert recording, but from the chart that DSatz posted above, if the typical “hyper” capsule is midway to a super, then the maximum null angle might just be close to 120 degrees.
Who cares, you may wonder?
 
When setting up rock and roll lead vocalists with two stage monitors instead of just one, the wedge-shaped loudspeakers are often arranged in what amounts to an equilateral triangle, which has internal angles of 120 degrees.
These hybrid pattern mics might just be optimal for rejecting loud stage monitors in a rock and roll environment, and that might be why the manufacturers are keen to offer them.


When I bought a Shure Beta 57 (version 1), this was approximately the sales pitch.

[rocksuitcase]

MK 41 is a supercardioid, which has a narrower front pickup pattern than a cardioid but wider than that of a hypercardioid. See chart below.

Very, very few microphones are real hypercardioids, even if they're called that by their manufacturers. The pattern just isn't optimal for most applications. Most microphones (or capsules) that are called hypercardioids are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid, and quite often are closer to the supercardioid side of the line.

Dsatz, maybe that also explains why those Beyer M201's were GREAT for flutes, reeds, solo violins, bongos and other light percussion. We used them for those instruments with the PA company I worked for (early to mid 1980's). Although, our mentor, Mark Fitzgerald, knew a lot about acoustics, especially speaker and amplifier/filter design, so hopefully he didn't rec us to buy a hypercardioid which wasn't.   

[Gutbucket]

See footnote #2 on the pattern chart above: [A supercardioid pattern provides] "Maximum front to total random energy efficiency for a first order cardioid".
^
I think that is one of the key aspects of a supercardioid intended for "concert taper" recording applications that are made from an audience perspective, which might sometimes includes isolated close spot-mic'ing / monitor rejection and such, but is mostly about capturing a natural sounding full soundfield with as much on-axis forward-sensitivity bias as practical. A well behaved supercardioid patten is the tool particularly well suited to achieving that because of its maximum front to total random energy efficiency.  Also depending on the stereo microphone configuration, the inverse-polarity of the back lobe can helps contribute a convincing sense of "stereo naturalness".

Sure, the specific null angles of the pattern are another aspect that can be leveraged to advantage, but for most "concert taper" recording applications I think what applies most often for tapers are those aspects which affect the sounds of interest that are more distant rather than the sounds to be avoided that are closer.  Ultimately useful for managing both of course.