Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4

[al w.]

Gut, I finally got a chance to run the OMT4 setup with the 4018s on the outside about 2' spread, 30* angle with the 2015s in the center as an XY pair at 90*. I had the 4018s about 8 inches in front of the subs in this case. The results are excellent. Big caveat this is a great sounding room so most tapes sound great here. I was keen to try to this out for the times where I will have a less than ideal room. The hypers on the outside sounded quite nice actually but lack any depth and sound thin to my ears. They are, as expected, focused, detailed with good punch and clarity, lacking low end response, etc. The subs XY in the middle by themselves sound quite horrible tbh. The main thing I wanted to test here is if the subs XY in the center added anything of value. When the 4 are mixed down they add quite a nice low end and provide some depth. The sum is definitely greater than the parts. I will post the raw and processed files later today. I ended up with a heavy hyper mix, about 75% with just enough of the subs to give some low end presence and space. Quite nice. Look forward to trying this in a less than ideal room to see how it holds up.

Also because I only have one set of DPA-A Bodies, I have to choose between hypers or card caps with the 2015 being a separate stand alone pair. So it needs to be some combo of subs and then either  hypers or cards which is why I went hypers outside, subs inside.


Edit: Updated with links to the raw and matrixed files
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dIvKOUiE_3DJlB0iU5x5VKlrHiRGyjsm?usp=drive_link

I don't have much to add on the technical front but did want to share that I think this tape sounds awesome - well done!!

[Gutbucket]

Never got around to hitting post yesterday on the message below before getting into the X/Y Mid/Side stuff today..


I finally got a chance to listen to FOCKER's recording and to Rock's first recording linked above Monday night..  but still need to go back and revisit Rock's second link to compare the two.

FOCKER, sounds good here. Really like the sound of those DPAs doing their thing.  I mostly concentrated on Tangled Up in Blue from set 2, but very much look forward to listening to the whole thing casually at some point. Listening critically for what might make it even better, based in part on what I've found each pair tends to contribute best to the whole, along with the expectations I've developed for my own recordings, I do think it could work even better with the pairs swapped - 4015's on the outside and 4018's in the center coincident position.  Sounds like the room and recording position would easily support doing that - and those are the only reasons not to in my way of thinking, unless there is some practical mic-mounting/setup issue that make that less attractive. 

I expect the change will make the low frequency content more spacious feeling and involving, the overall sense of 3-dimensionality deeper/wider, audience reaction a bit more wrap around and diffusely distributed (all that due to moving the subcards out in the spaced position) while pulling a bit more transient detail and presence into the center, and with sharper imaging cues across the middle from moving the tighter-pattern supercards into the X/Y center position.  A bit more focused while also sounding more dimensional.  Not a huge difference, these are subtle things.  Its hard to describe in words, but I really like hearing the sound of the instrumentation sort of blooming from a tightly focused center out toward the sides as it seemingly flows from the stage out into the room, and the room and audience stuff sounding very dimensionally "out there" beyond that.  I think using the more directional pair which has less bass extension but sharper imaging in the center and the more lush, open-sounding pair in the spaced position helps to achieve that. 

If I weren't critiquing in this way and just came across this recording I'd put all those thoughts out of mind and just enjoy it!  Sounds great as it is and thanks again for sharing it here.  I think you get the award for the strongest initial OMT recordings I've heard so far!


Rock, I also enjoyed your Eggy recording (first link).  Still need to listen to the second mix and compare.  This one took a bit more EQ for me to get where I wanted it (VLC built-in graphic EQ) ending up with a broad presence boost curve with a pretty sharp notch right in the middle of it (6kHz slider IIRC) and carefully compensated with a just a touch of additional boost to either side of it carefully dialed in. Vocals were overly distant sounding otherwise, but it was tricky to get the needed articulation there while not making the other content sharing that region overly strident. A pretty funky not smooth correction curve but it out worked well once I got it set.  Other than that I think I'd prefer the spaced directional pair a bit closer in to the center with a bit more angle between them.  Speculating a bit though.  That's based in that thing about a nice tight, clear center blooming out the sides again..  keeping it cohesive while the additional channels adding layers of complexity.  Will compare with your second link when I get a chance. Maybe tonight..

[Gutbucket]

One observation I made about both these recordings is that it really helped to download and asses one of the lossless files rather than trying to assess the streaming data-compressed version.  I don't always find that to be as important.  I wonder if the generally more well decorrelated audience ambience and reverberance has something to do with that, as that content tends to be more difficult to data-compress without artifacts.  Similarly I notice that the FLACs of my 6' spaced omni pair are always somewhat larger than the FLACs of my near-spaced and coincident pairs from the same array.  Which I assume is because there is less phase-correlation in the wide spaced omnis than the other pairs.

[rocksuitcase]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1] The streaming quality, esp on LMA is definitely not best to judge by, thanks for DL'ing them.
2] The Eggy vocals were distant live. We spoke about it later, sort of odd as we know that room.
3] The second mix is pretty different from mix one to my ears.

Thanks for the comments and listen. +T

[Gutbucket]

Vocals are all to often a sort of awkward step-child in the happy family of live sound!

[grawk]

My recording of Trey from Tuesday was omt4ish.  4018as out wide, pointing at the outside of the stack, 4015gs DINa in the middle, on a single wide bar.  I mixed the 4018s -6db down from the 4015s

https://archive.org/details/ta-20250401_202504

I also uploaded the separate 4015gs and 4018 tracks

[F0CKER]

I don't have much to add on the technical front but did want to share that I think this tape sounds awesome - well done!!

Many thanks!

[F0CKER]

FOCKER, sounds good here. Really like the sound of those DPAs doing their thing.  I mostly concentrated on Tangled Up in Blue from set 2, but very much look forward to listening to the whole thing casually at some point. Listening critically for what might make it even better, based in part on what I've found each pair tends to contribute best to the whole, along with the expectations I've developed for my own recordings, I do think it could work even better with the pairs swapped - 4015's on the outside and 4018's in the center coincident position.  Sounds like the room and recording position would easily support doing that - and those are the only reasons not to in my way of thinking, unless there is some practical mic-mounting/setup issue that make that less attractive. 

I expect the change will make the low frequency content more spacious feeling and involving, the overall sense of 3-dimensionality deeper/wider, audience reaction a bit more wrap around and diffusely distributed (all that due to moving the subcards out in the spaced position) while pulling a bit more transient detail and presence into the center, and with sharper imaging cues across the middle from moving the tighter-pattern supercards into the X/Y center position.  A bit more focused while also sounding more dimensional.  Not a huge difference, these are subtle things.  Its hard to describe in words, but I really like hearing the sound of the instrumentation sort of blooming from a tightly focused center out toward the sides as it seemingly flows from the stage out into the room, and the room and audience stuff sounding very dimensionally "out there" beyond that.  I think using the more directional pair which has less bass extension but sharper imaging in the center and the more lush, open-sounding pair in the spaced position helps to achieve that. 

If I weren't critiquing in this way and just came across this recording I'd put all those thoughts out of mind and just enjoy it!  Sounds great as it is and thanks again for sharing it here.  I think you get the award for the strongest initial OMT recordings I've heard so far!

Many thanks here as well!

So this is not what I would typically run in this venue. It was more about m just trying something new to see how it felt / worked, etc. In general i prefer the sound of subacards to just about any other pattern and would prefer for that to be the centerpiece, so to speak. However, they tend to lack some detail which is what attracted me to trying out these OT approaches. I would generally used thw 2015s as the primary pair, with the hypers filling in as needed. The only exception being when I'm truly in a bad room or arena, etc. Getting ahead of that I wanted to kick the tires on different setups where the hypers were the main focus and figure out what works best given the options I have. To that end, I think the result was positive in giving me more information.

Big props to you for all you've done to fine tune these ideas and approaches. Ive had more fun running these setups than I have had taping in quite some time. I will say this, you do tend to get some odd looks  while setting up because it is definitely out of the norm within this community. I think once you start talking about it with other tapers, it starts to make more sense. I try to convey it as a variation of mid/side for those who inquire.

[Gutbucket]

Thanks for the kind words!

Glad you're enjoying using some of these oddball arrangement ideas, and fully with you on the love of the subcard sound.  It's my favorite pattern for a single stereo pair when the situation allows for it.  I've written about this in these threads before but it bears repeating.. Even though I'm not using subcards in my setup currently, if you consider the combination of all the microphones together in it - their angles, patterns and levels in the resulting mix - their collective sum forms what is essentially something like a subcardioid sensitivity pattern facing the stage.  Tweaking levels, angles, and which mics are used where then modifies that collective pattern one way or another as needed.  In more difficult rooms where the mics are necessarily more forward focused, that combined collective pattern becomes more cardioid like.  In great rooms and outdoor amphitheaters it trends more omnidirectional, yet still essentially subcardioid with an important degree of forward-bias toward directed toward the stage to get a sufficient sense of proximity, clean details, and clear vocals.  The only times I've ended up with a fully omnidirectional sensitivity in all directions is in the center of a circle of musicians and with nature or other ambient recordings.

If you do try swapping the positions of the 4015s and 4018s let me know what you think of the sound of that in comparison to the other way around.  Your comment about the 4015's working really well in the primary role but potentially benefitting from a bit of extra detail from the 4018's dovetails perfectly with that.

Totally hear you on the odd looks! Funny how some folks are very curious while others shake their heads WTF when they see these arrays getting setup and used, even more so with my inclusion of a pair that's quite obviously facing backwards.  Used to be a taper who regularly attended fests at the Spirit of the Suwannee for a few of years who actually got angry with me a couple times for pointing mics in "all the wrong directions" and was not in the least interested in hearing why I might be doing that, stomping off when I didn't immediately acquiesce to using a standard DIN arrangement.  Most tapers aware of my proclivity toward these things enjoy someone doing something different even if they have no interest in going there.  Fun talking with sound guys about it who often walk over with questions. Some get what I'm doing right away, while others have commented that they're working so hard to deal with sound bouncing around from directions other than the stage while I'm there trying to figure out the best way to capture the same stuff.  I reassure them that I would be unable to create such a successful "you are there" teleportation-time-machine like listening experience if it were not for their excellent work in managing the sound as heard by the audience in the room, which means the sound arriving from all directions including the stage and PA.  So much of the live magic occurs out in the room once the sound has left the stage and PA. That always makes them smile and may persuade a few, while at least getting the others who may still consider this crazy feeling good about what they are doing!

[rocksuitcase]

The soundmen who have spoken with me or asked about the arrays genuinely seem interested in the why and then they typically get it. I have been asked by two soundmen to share the recording with them so they could check out the difference compared to their SBD mixes.
Most attendees have only ever asked about the why of pointing mics backward, which I do not do much anymore indoors.
 

[al w.]

My recording of Trey from Tuesday was omt4ish.  4018as out wide, pointing at the outside of the stack, 4015gs DINa in the middle, on a single wide bar.  I mixed the 4018s -6db down from the 4015s

https://archive.org/details/ta-20250401_202504

I also uploaded the separate 4015gs and 4018 tracks

Great stuff!!!

[Craig T]

OMT sighting in the wild yesterday.

[F0CKER]

Craig, whose rig? Has to be someone in this thread. lol

[Craig T]

Craig, whose rig? Has to be someone in this thread. lol

Lee's OMT8 and my OMT4 at Southland Bluegrass Fest.

[Gutbucket]

Great to see you there Craig!