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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4  (Read 786403 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #210 on: July 07, 2025, 12:36:30 PM »
Right on.  Nice to be approaching what seems the point of diminishing returns where we're mostly tweaking details, having already achieved the most significant advancements by way of the general concept.  That's kind of where I feel we are with all of this at this point.  Thanks for taking it up, sharing your thoughts and recordings and helping to refine it to the nth degree.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #211 on: July 29, 2025, 11:48:14 PM »
Our latest effort- an OMT6 at Phish SPAC night1
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=207845.0

We ran kindms AKGc34 in the middle DFC in the OTS int a Sonosax SX-M2D2; I took a digi feed and added a pair of AKG ck8's PAS and DPA 4060's spread 10 feet on other stands.
All in all a great experience; show and recording wise. 
PHISH
2025-07-25 FRIDAY
Broadview Stage at SPAC
Saratoga Springs NY

MDAUD OMT6
microphones:
ch1/2: DPA 4060 Omnis spread 10 feet apart > Grace V2 sn001 >
ch3/4: AKG ck8 supercardioids PAS > Grace V2 >
ch5/6: AKG c34 M/S [ Mid=cardioid; Side=fig 8 ] >
recorder: Tascam DR680|SD
processing: SD|Audacity|cdwaveditor|TLH|foobar2000 tagger
recorded by: Kyle Holbrook; Michael Deary
processed by: Kyle Holbrook

SET 1:
d1t01. First Tube
d1t02. Bathtub Gin
d1t03. Devotion To a Dream
d1t04. The Well
d1t05. Birds of a Feather
d1t06. Strawberry Letter 23
d1t07. Lawn Boy
d1t08. The Old Home Place
d1t09. Hey Stranger
d1t10. Walls of the Cave

SET 2:
d2t01. Set Your Soul Free >
d2t02. Chalk Dust Torture ->
d2t03. Beneath a Sea of Stars Part 1 ->
d2t04. Piper >
d2t05. Everything's Right
d2t06. encore break
d2t07. Loving Cup >
d2t08. Run Like an Antelope


Following Lawn Boy, Trey introduced Page as "The Chairman of the Mound."
Setlist from phish.net

edited to add rig pics: This night I only got a shot of our stand, no DPA's in the shot.
That is kindms' AKGc34 anchoring the middle and the AKGck8's aimed PAS.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2025, 03:37:37 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #212 on: August 04, 2025, 12:49:38 PM »
Thanks Kyle! Now back home again I've got something to listen to tonight!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #213 on: November 03, 2025, 11:07:17 AM »
https://archive.org/details/gmule2025-10-30akgc34dpa4060

This is a pretty nice sounding 4 channel OMT Audience.
What do you guys think of the spaciousness, etc?
kindms is working up the straight AKG c34 recording so we can compare once it is up.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #214 on: November 03, 2025, 01:47:12 PM »
Thank your Rock. I am just listening your Phish from July now. It sounds great. I quickly compared it to other recordings and I like the omt the most. I am looking forward to listen Mule.

Offline Thelonious

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #215 on: November 03, 2025, 05:56:58 PM »
https://archive.org/details/gmule2025-10-30akgc34dpa4060

This is a pretty nice sounding 4 channel OMT Audience.
What do you guys think of the spaciousness, etc?
kindms is working up the straight AKG c34 recording so we can compare once it is up.

Thanks for sharing this Rock. Another outstanding audience recording.

On speakers I immediately like the frequency response and how balanced it is. When I listened on headphones to check the imaging it's great. Not super wide, but the distribution from left to right across the soundstage is very linear and sounds very natural. When Warren's guitar comes in on Soulshine it's right in the middle of the image. Overall really nice.

Was the omni spacing 3' or plus/minus 3' (6' overall)? With the XY in the centre, do you leave those mics panned fully L/R or bring them in from that? I'm assuming this is mounted out from the balcony based on your pics and the distance from the audience in the recording?

I have been recording my local "acoustic" (non PA) residency and have only recently started bringing the XY mics in from the extremes (when panning in post) to kind of fill the hole in the middle and even the spacing out a bit more. I think I was like plus of minus 60% of the pan for the centre pair on this one. MK22 26" +/-55degrees, mk41 xy (panned +/-60% in post), 4060s +/- 24". Mk22s are the main pair and others brought in to taste.  https://samply.app/p/tgv6DWzEMn2gFCvS6VVF?si=MwM4exTQgoUbSFONGIz3QqxORdl2

Different as the instruments are primarily far left and right in mine and there is less going on in the centre on stage so I'm interested how you find it in the live show application.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #216 on: November 03, 2025, 06:11:45 PM »
https://archive.org/details/gmule2025-10-30akgc34dpa4060

This is a pretty nice sounding 4 channel OMT Audience.
What do you guys think of the spaciousness, etc?
kindms is working up the straight AKG c34 recording so we can compare once it is up.

Thanks for sharing this Rock. Another outstanding audience recording.

On speakers I immediately like the frequency response and how balanced it is. When I listened on headphones to check the imaging it's great. Not super wide, but the distribution from left to right across the soundstage is very linear and sounds very natural. When Warren's guitar comes in on Soulshine it's right in the middle of the image. Overall really nice.

Was the omni spacing 3' or plus/minus 3' (6' overall)? A= spread 6 feet, 3 feet from the C34 XY

With the XY in the centre, do you leave those mics panned fully L/R or bring them in from that? A = Live, we left them at 90 degrees XY cardioids. Mixed, I did have the XY at 0 and the omnis at -2 dB relative to the cards.

I'm assuming this is mounted out from the balcony based on your pics and the distance from the audience in the recording? A = we got a VERY quiet audience- AKG was mounted on the railing and the DPA's were gaffed to the front of the balcony facade.


I will check out your recording and report my thinking! THANKS for listening and asking and sharing your efforts.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #217 on: November 04, 2025, 10:48:58 AM »
I have been recording my local "acoustic" (non PA) residency and have only recently started bringing the XY mics in from the extremes (when panning in post) to kind of fill the hole in the middle and even the spacing out a bit more. [..snip..]
Different as the instruments are primarily far left and right in mine and there is less going on in the centre on stage so I'm interested how you find it in the live show application.

I find it really helpful to be able to compensate for the angling of a mic-pair with panning when needed, and the other way around, including sometimes intentionally playing one off the other to best advantage.  Although I don't stray overly far from my typical arrangement, I do angle the directional mics for clarity of pickup depending on the situation, based mostly on visual assessment of the room/PA/on-stage setup but also possibly informed by listening to the soundcheck or previous band, then adjust level and panning afterward as needed so as to achieve best balance and image.  That said, I also try to arrange my setup so the spaced / near-spaced mic-pair channels ideally remain hard panned, with panning or M/S ratio adjustments (essentially the same thing) made to the coincident center pair.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2025, 10:50:54 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #218 on: March 12, 2026, 12:50:37 PM »
Listening to Thelonious's comparison of Neumann KM184 / Schoeps MK22 brought to mind the somewhat different way I now think about the roll of rear facing mic channel(s) in OMT when mixing to 2-channel stereo.  That's certainly how the majority of folks are using OMT, including myself for the past 10 years or so.  Although I really love it and miss it, its been quite a while since I've had a surround system suited for playback of these recordings in action.

Originally, I included a rear-facing mic to feed the separate surround channels, later expanded to a rear-facing pair, which worked really well for the purpose.  The tangible sense of front/back depth, the depiction of the room geometry, realistic audience reaction wrapping all around, and a far more realistic sensation of bass were all very compelling when everything was arranged correctly.  I found that keeping as much direct front arriving sound as possible out of the surround channels was a big part of getting it to work right.  Bear with me here, as I realize I've mentioned that a number of times in these threads.

Also mentioned numerous times was that I was super pleased to find many of the advantages translated to a 2-channel stereo mix down as well.  Although the tangible surround playback aspects obviously were not the same, the inclusion still made the recordings sound far more natural and convincing to me, generally making for a more compelling listening experience.  On top of that, the ability to dial in just the right amount, along with adjustment of  balance and other aspects, made recording in that way super useful for me even after surround playback was no longer my primary goal.  The advantage was the "sound" I was able to get by recording in that way, but also in the increased flexibility it provided in achieving a good result in general. 

I still think of the rear-facing pair in terms of allowing for the addition of "front-back dimension, room and audience" to taste, but I've also now come to think of it as allowing me to adjust the polar pattern of the primary forward-facing near-spaced L/R pair, afterward.  I'm using supercardioids in both those positions to reduce acoustic crosstalk between them as much as is practical, which also keeps the array size manageable in terms of necessary spacing/angle between mics to retain a good hand-off from channel to channel moving around the array.  Arguably a smooth hand-off around the sides from front pair to rear pair probably matters more with surround, but seems to me it helps in a stereo mix too, even though technically that dimension gets flattened.

Here's the thing-
Ignoring the other channels of the array (in my case a coincident center pair and a wide-spaced omni pair, which we'll just mute for this thought experiment) and starting with just the forward-facing near-spaced L/R pair, bringing up the rear-facing pair essentially serves to broaden the polar pattern of the primary forward facing L/R mic pair.  That's the main thing I hear.  It's somewhat like switching a straight forward facing stereo pair to a more open pickup pattern. There are some important differences, but that's the main thing.  I gain control over choice of L/R pickup pattern after the fact. Is it exactly the same? No, the forward focus of the front supercardioid pair remains essentially unchanged.  The ideal spacing/angle between that forward supercardioid pair remains the same. It's forward focus remains the same. Moving toward the center the polar patterns remain supercardioid, but moving out toward the sides the effective polar pattern broadens as the rear-facing channels are raised in level, basically as much as is desirable.  The same goes for the rear-image, still two supercardioids with regard to the imaging region between them, but the pattern out to the sides opens up more.. as much as I want.  Can even go beyond "pseudo subcardiod pair, or pseudo jecklin-disc baffled omni pair" to the pattern facing more rearward than frontward if desirable for whatever reason. Its all a consequence of the mic angles and supercardioid polars and how they combine.

Unlike switching to mics of another polar pattern, the front and back imaging geometry doesn't change much, only off-axis pickup does.  Perhaps this observation is either arcane or obvious to you, but its been rather insightful to me.

Thinking through it further- There is certainly some potential for comb filtering or phase-smearing when the foreword and rear-ward directed supercards on each side get mixed together.  Essentially we have a stereo-mono-compatibly issue on each side, by mixing together the equivalent of a near-spaced stereo configuration turned sideways. The spacing between the front and rear facing pairs was originally intended to impart a slight time-of-arrival difference that increased the perception of front/back separation and helped keep the sound from in front from bleeding around back, and allowed for the use of more level in the rear-channels.  That potential front/rear mono mix down compatibly on each side could be minimized by placing the rear-facing pair coincident with the front-facing pair.  Which would also make the setup more compact in the fore/aft dimension.  But I've not had any problems with that, I think because these four channels of the array were setup so as to "hand-off" smoothly from one to the other it works when folded down. And I suspect the front/back time-of-arrival difference imparts some attractive binaural cues in the stereo mix and makes for a more diffuse portrayal of reverberance. 

So I'm sticking with the near-spacing of the front/back pairs, but other folks using rear-facing channels in their OMT setups intended for stereo mixdown might try placing the front and rear facing pairs coincident with each other.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline VibrationOfLife

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #219 on: April 06, 2026, 08:08:48 AM »
OMT 4 - Hypers inside and in front DIN-A, open cards PAS.

The angles look off in the photo, the hypers were at 90, and the opens were pointed at the outer edge of the line array almost roughly 70 degrees.  I don't know why it turned out that way, but it was low light with a very crappy cell phone.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2026, 08:12:19 AM by VibrationOfLife »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #220 on: April 06, 2026, 09:30:34 AM »
Happy with it? Combination of the two better than either alone?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline VibrationOfLife

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #221 on: April 06, 2026, 05:15:48 PM »
Very much so.  While not as much of a stereo image, it is much fuller rounder sound.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #222 on: April 07, 2026, 12:41:54 PM »
^Right on. 

Here's a few photos from Suwannee Spring Reunion a few weeks back.  Great to get back in the spring after a few years away due to work conflicts.  Positioned my OMT 8 rig FOB at the amphitheater along with a couple of the festival archivist rigs just in front and beside.  The one adjacent a 2ch X/Y config, the one a row forward a 4 channel rig consisting of X/Y hypers in the center between a spaced 90-deg pair, around twice as far apart as a typical 2ch near-spaced config would be, conforming to all PAS OMT4 ideas.  That taper rarely if ever posts here and evolved that configuration of his own accord.  He and I have talked about why it works well and how over the years we've converged to essentially the same optimization for using 4-microphones.  Makes for good validation.  Another ran wide spaced omnis back at the board which may be visible in some photos.  There was also a relatively wide-spaced near-spaced config back there.

First photo just an OMT8 glory shot looking up into the live oaks and Spanish moss (missed a big owl overflying by a split second).
Second ia the three FOB rigs.
Third a better shot of the 4-ch rig one row fwd.
And a few others of the general FOB scene.

[edit to try and fix unintended photo rotations.  One still doesnn't rotate properly when enlarged]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2026, 12:47:48 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #223 on: April 07, 2026, 01:08:08 PM »
Did some experimentation with rig placement while recording a few sets in the Music Hall on Friday before heading back out to the amphitheater later that afternoon.

First & second- Same OMT8 rig, deployed in low folding floor stand (as I typically do on stage) except under front row seat over to one side directly in front of PA.  Omnis retracted.
Third & fourth- Directly in front of and just higher than SBD, aimed over seated audience heads. Omnis slightly extended. Windscreen removed from center stereo shotgun.
Fifth- At stage lip, positioned low between two center stage monitors, spaced omnis were extended out 5' to place them directly in front of small audience fill speakers positioned outboard of the center stage monitor pair. The last position for the win with the direction mics picking up the live onstage goodness, omnis providing SBD like pickup from the low-level front audience fills, and audience/room facing pair up in front of the entire audience. Should have moved there after the first set rather than going back to the SBD.. and whish I'd taken a few more photos of it. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2026, 01:13:09 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #224 on: April 07, 2026, 01:23:19 PM »
A few venue and artist photos.  First is of the live video and audio feed from the amphitheater over to the picnic area sponsored by the Live Oak Music and Arts Foundation.  Laughed when I saw the camera view predominantly featuring the taper rigs, including a friend's rig at center clamped to my stand with the Springfest ball cap shading it.  Sound was off, so I powered up the PA and worked the mixer to get it going for the folks over there.  Good times.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

 

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