Topic: Tascam FR-AV2 new compact 32bit float recorder.

[voltronic]

I'd say yes, there's no analog gain.

For what it's worth--and maybe this has already been fully clarified elsewhere in this thread (which I admit I have not read from start to finish), in which case my apologies for the redundancy--there is no analog input stage gain control whatsoever on this new tascam unit.  I emailed Tascam directly to ask about this (back in September), since the manual's section on 'Setting the Recording Level' was not clear, and their answer was "REC LEVEL is done at the digital stage"

which, to my mind, makes it unnecessary to try to adjust the REC LEVEL while recording, as there is no advantage or benefit to doing so then vs. later, in post.

If anyone else has more current info from Tascam on analog gain control / REC LEVEL domain that contradicts the answer I received from them, please let me/us know!

Zoom makes this a bit clearer in the F6 and F8N PRO manuals. Those recorders can do both 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float record modes. In either mode, the analog input gain is fixed. All level adjustments (trim, fader, etc) happen post-ADC in the digital domain. The mode just determines when that level adjustment happens, the signal routing, and file format.

I suspect the FR-AV2 and other 32FP-capable units from Tascam operate a similar way.

[Kyle K]

Let it run with eneloop pros again, 24v phantom power via XLRs powering DPA 4060s - ran 9 hours and the file splits were clean. Cannot explain the distortion I saw at the end of the files from when I was actually taping a show. Did not modify any settings or update any firmware since. Same DAW flow.

[TheJez]

I'd say yes, there's no analog gain.

For what it's worth--and maybe this has already been fully clarified elsewhere in this thread (which I admit I have not read from start to finish), in which case my apologies for the redundancy--there is no analog input stage gain control whatsoever on this new tascam unit.  I emailed Tascam directly to ask about this (back in September), since the manual's section on 'Setting the Recording Level' was not clear, and their answer was "REC LEVEL is done at the digital stage"

which, to my mind, makes it unnecessary to try to adjust the REC LEVEL while recording, as there is no advantage or benefit to doing so then vs. later, in post.

If anyone else has more current info from Tascam on analog gain control / REC LEVEL domain that contradicts the answer I received from them, please let me/us know!

Thanks for forwarding the info provided by Tascam! Just a small addition: Although there is no input stage gain control, there are of course three different input paths into this recorder (MIC, LINE and the 3.5mm EXT input), each with their own fixed input stage gain. It makes me wonder if one of them is fed directly into the 2xADC, and if the other two are amplified/attenuated to get the same dynamic range before feeding them to the 2xADC...

On this matter, I am puzzled why the input ratings are defined differently in the manual for MIC, LINE and EXT.
For MIC, they mention a max and min level in dBu (no nominal).
For LINE, they mention a max and nominal level in dBu (no min).
For EXT they mention a max, nominal and min in dBV.
Very confusing for this digitally-oriented guy... Can someone maybe explain how to read this? I think I understand defining a max level, but why min and nominal?? What do these mean, why do they matter?
(If I'm correct, dBu is typically used for professional equipment and dBV for consumer equipement, and one should add 2.21 to dBV to convert to dBu, right?)

When MIC input selected
- Maximum input level: +4 dBu
- Minimum input level: −76 dBu
- Input impedance: 2.0 kΩ or more

When LINE input selected
- Maximum input level: +24 dBu
- Nominal input level: +4 dBu (GAIN setting at minimum)
- Input impedance: 8 kΩ or more

EXT
- Maximum input level: 1 dBV
- Nominal input level: −19 dBV (GAIN setting at minimum)
- Minimum input level: −79 dBV
- Input impedance: 6 kΩ or higher (when plug-in power is off )
                             1.6 kΩ or higher (when plug-in power is on)

[Joop]

I emailed Tascam directly to ask about this (back in September), since the manual's section on 'Setting the Recording Level' was not clear, and their answer was "REC LEVEL is done at the digital stage"

If anyone else has more current info from Tascam on analog gain control / REC LEVEL domain that contradicts the answer I received from them, please let me/us know!

On this matter, I am puzzled why the input ratings are defined differently in the manual for MIC, LINE and EXT.
For MIC, they mention a max and min level in dBu (no nominal).
For LINE, they mention a max and nominal level in dBu (no min).
For EXT they mention a max, nominal and min in dBV.
Very confusing for this digitally-oriented guy... Can someone maybe explain how to read this? I think I understand defining a max level, but why min and nominal?? What do these mean, why do they matter?
(If I'm correct, dBu is typically used for professional equipment and dBV for consumer equipement, and one should add 2.21 to dBV to convert to dBu, right?)

When MIC input selected
- Maximum input level: +4 dBu
- Minimum input level: −76 dBu
- Input impedance: 2.0 kΩ or more

When LINE input selected
- Maximum input level: +24 dBu
- Nominal input level: +4 dBu (GAIN setting at minimum)
- Input impedance: 8 kΩ or more

EXT
- Maximum input level: 1 dBV
- Nominal input level: −19 dBV (GAIN setting at minimum)
- Minimum input level: −79 dBV
- Input impedance: 6 kΩ or higher (when plug-in power is off )
                             1.6 kΩ or higher (when plug-in power is on)

There are two things here, one is that Tascam already use "rec level in digital stage" for a longer time, but a different digital stage then most think. As an example, on the DR-701D they use probably encoders as volume potmeters for each channel. That's clever, you kick out a lot of problems seen with analog potmeters. The input is going probably through an IC with part number like NJW1195(A). This is a 4-Channel Electronic Volume with Input Selector. In this way you can have different amplifier setups, different gains and input impedance's for different sources.

With MIC they use a minimum specification, because its more related to the specs of a microphone, you can see directly if you can use that microphone or not.
With LINE they use nominal  because +4 dBu is widely used in studio and other "pro"-settings. A specification of a minimum is not that useful for a line input.
With EXT  the nominal level is about the standard of DIN, the maximum is a little less than the maximum for MIC. This amplifier seems to have a gain of 20 dB. The minimum is the lowest signal which can be handled, with 20 dB gain you get then -59 dBV as maximum. It looks like the EXT input also switches between a mic or a line setting when pip is used.

I hope this will clear a few things.

[dogmusic]

I emailed Tascam directly to ask about this (back in September), since the manual's section on 'Setting the Recording Level' was not clear, and their answer was "REC LEVEL is done at the digital stage"

If anyone else has more current info from Tascam on analog gain control / REC LEVEL domain that contradicts the answer I received from them, please let me/us know!

On this matter, I am puzzled why the input ratings are defined differently in the manual for MIC, LINE and EXT.
For MIC, they mention a max and min level in dBu (no nominal).
For LINE, they mention a max and nominal level in dBu (no min).
For EXT they mention a max, nominal and min in dBV.
Very confusing for this digitally-oriented guy... Can someone maybe explain how to read this? I think I understand defining a max level, but why min and nominal?? What do these mean, why do they matter?
(If I'm correct, dBu is typically used for professional equipment and dBV for consumer equipement, and one should add 2.21 to dBV to convert to dBu, right?)

When MIC input selected
- Maximum input level: +4 dBu
- Minimum input level: −76 dBu
- Input impedance: 2.0 kΩ or more

When LINE input selected
- Maximum input level: +24 dBu
- Nominal input level: +4 dBu (GAIN setting at minimum)
- Input impedance: 8 kΩ or more

EXT
- Maximum input level: 1 dBV
- Nominal input level: −19 dBV (GAIN setting at minimum)
- Minimum input level: −79 dBV
- Input impedance: 6 kΩ or higher (when plug-in power is off )
                             1.6 kΩ or higher (when plug-in power is on)

There are two things here, one is that Tascam already use "rec level in digital stage" for a longer time, but a different digital stage then most think. As an example, on the DR-701D they use probably encoders as volume potmeters for each channel. That's clever, you kick out a lot of problems seen with analog potmeters. The input is going probably through an IC with part number like NJW1195(A). This is a 4-Channel Electronic Volume with Input Selector. In this way you can have different amplifier setups, different gains and input impedance's for different sources.

With MIC they use a minimum specification, because its more related to the specs of a microphone, you can see directly if you can use that microphone or not.
With LINE they use nominal  because +4 dBu is widely used in studio and other "pro"-settings. A specification of a minimum is not that useful for a line input.
With EXT  the nominal level is about the standard of DIN, the maximum is a little less than the maximum for MIC. This amplifier seems to have a gain of 20 dB. The minimum is the lowest signal which can be handled, with 20 dB gain you get then -59 dBV as maximum. It looks like the EXT input also switches between a mic or a line setting when pip is used.

I hope this will clear a few things.

That’s great information. Thank you!

[Joop]

That’s great information. Thank you!

Thanks, I don't know what they did within the FR-AV2. Probably something very clever as usual.

[TheJez]

There are two things here, one is that Tascam already use "rec level in digital stage" for a longer time, but a different digital stage then most think. As an example, on the DR-701D they use probably encoders as volume potmeters for each channel. That's clever, you kick out a lot of problems seen with analog potmeters. The input is going probably through an IC with part number like NJW1195(A). This is a 4-Channel Electronic Volume with Input Selector. In this way you can have different amplifier setups, different gains and input impedance's for different sources.

With MIC they use a minimum specification, because its more related to the specs of a microphone, you can see directly if you can use that microphone or not.
With LINE they use nominal  because +4 dBu is widely used in studio and other "pro"-settings. A specification of a minimum is not that useful for a line input.
With EXT  the nominal level is about the standard of DIN, the maximum is a little less than the maximum for MIC. This amplifier seems to have a gain of 20 dB. The minimum is the lowest signal which can be handled, with 20 dB gain you get then -59 dBV as maximum. It looks like the EXT input also switches between a mic or a line setting when pip is used.

I hope this will clear a few things.

Thanks Joop for your brave attempt to educate me! I've been reading your response a couple of times and I think I largely understand 

[Kyle K]

I opened a support ticket regarding being unable to turn the screen off while recording with Phantom Power.

[unclehoolio]

I'd say yes, there's no analog gain.

For what it's worth--and maybe this has already been fully clarified elsewhere in this thread (which I admit I have not read from start to finish), in which case my apologies for the redundancy--there is no analog input stage gain control whatsoever on this new tascam unit.  I emailed Tascam directly to ask about this (back in September), since the manual's section on 'Setting the Recording Level' was not clear, and their answer was "REC LEVEL is done at the digital stage"

which, to my mind, makes it unnecessary to try to adjust the REC LEVEL while recording, as there is no advantage or benefit to doing so then vs. later, in post.

If anyone else has more current info from Tascam on analog gain control / REC LEVEL domain that contradicts the answer I received from them, please let me/us know!

Zoom makes this a bit clearer in the F6 and F8N PRO manuals. Those recorders can do both 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float record modes. In either mode, the analog input gain is fixed. All level adjustments (trim, fader, etc) happen post-ADC in the digital domain. The mode just determines when that level adjustment happens, the signal routing, and file format.

I suspect the FR-AV2 and other 32FP-capable units from Tascam operate a similar way.

Hi Voltronic--

I also took the time to recently ask Zoom about where the trim (gain) control operates in both the F6 and F8n Pro, when operating in linear mode (which is the only mode I use).

(This because I had stumbled across your explanation of the F6's signal flow (above) on another platform, which was I believe based on one of the block diagrams in the F6 manual.  From there I looked at the manual and and block diagrams for the F8n Pro, which led me to looking at the manuals for the F8 and F8n as well, and comparing them all, where I realized that there were differences in the block diagrams across the 4 resources.)

Zoom's response was that, for both the F6 and F8n Pro in linear mode, the signal flow was XLR->Trim->ADC.  That answer matches most closely to the Detailed Product Diagram on p130 of the F8 manual and p185 of the F8n manual.  I didn't question them further as to why the the F8n Pro and F6 manuals contains dissimilar graphics / don't spell this out clearly.

In addition, they also clarified that the dual ADC system operates in both linear and 32bf mode.

[goodcooker]

I opened a support ticket regarding being unable to turn the screen off while recording with Phantom Power.

I thought that was just me not knowing what I had done in the menu on my first outing with it.

[TheJez]

I opened a support ticket regarding being unable to turn the screen off while recording with Phantom Power.

I'm still in doubt about opening a ticket about not being able to turn down/off the screen when powered through USB, especially after my rather embaressing faulty ticket about the track splitting...
It works as described in the manual (all user display settings get overruled when powering through USB), but I still think this is a really weird and annoying 'feature' that I'd like to get removed.
The urgency for my 'request' has lowered quite a bit since I know the battery life is rather good and sufficient for my personal purposes. I don't think I will ever need to run the device on a power bank.

[Ozpeter]

Just a passing thought on the need to power these devices for long periods - given that in most cases one can now simply turn on the rig and walk away, it does enable live recordings to be made by setting up the gear before the public are admitted (if possible), setting it running, and collecting it at the end of the night.  So external powering might be more necessary than in other scenarios.  In fact, you might be more worried about losing power than clipping the recording.  Of course there is always the issue of someone helping themselves to the gear when unattended, I admit.

I once recorded three classical concerts at the same time in London, in three different halls, though admittedly two were in the same complex.  That absolutely required the set-and-forget approach, and it was long before 32 bit float was even thought of!  But I got away with it...

[goodcooker]

Used my FR AV2 for a taping outing with P48 mics for the first time - https://on.soundcloud.com/VLJYCuPhFS6vaGqU7

King Gizzard 2024-11-12 Criterion, Oklahoma City, OK

MBHO KA500 hypers with Naiant PFA plugged straight in. Mics on an extension pole clamped to the front left corner of the SBD enclosure (so I was off center 20 feet or more and you can tell) about 7 ft high.

I used some EQ on the bass - rolling off quite a bit as I always do - the low extension of the preamp in this recorder is quite good.

[Chrysler]

Which Input(s) would you prefer using when connecting a soundboard to the FR-AV2 ?

[Kyle K]

The XLR/TRS (LINE setting) have the highest max input and are balanced, so I opt for those in terms of minmaxing.