Topic: What's the point in running any other config other than PAS?

[taperdave1998]

This isn't intended to start controversy, but rather, it was a shower thought that hit me this morning.

I'm under the impression that most of us attend shows which are heavy on the PA, loud rock shows or whatever. If such does happen to be the case, why would anyone be concerned with what stereo technique they're running other than just pointed their mics as close to on-axis with the sound sources as possible and calling it good? Or, is that what most of us already do?

This sentiment need not apply to acoustic/orchestral recordings where the venue's acoustics are a genuine part of the recording (a bit more on the professional side, methinks).

I've stealthed many shows since late 2022 when I began this hobby, but only openly taped twice. Both times were PAS and with the two upcoming shows I'll be hitting later this week, I can't imagine I'll be digging out the protractor and/or tape measure for these.

Again, this isn't meant to come off as derogatory or insulting, but it just makes me wonder. Why bother with NOS and ORTF and all that just to record a PA broadcast?

Let me know your thoughts on the matter!

[EmRR]

If you’re outside of critical distance, which is common, definitely PAS. Within, depends on the closeness ratio and the room, the room may be contributing a significant positive to the speaker blast. MS and ambisonics can give you some steerage options for focusing totally PAS or somewhat off axis.

[vibrioidxire]

It just depends on the room. I always PAS because most venues mic up and put out everything through the stacks, but then there are some who only mic a kick drum and vocals. This is where you will have to find a balance.

[nulldogmas]

Assuming you're talking about directional mics here, here's just one example: I've had success pointing cards slightly wider than the stacks, if I'm in a position where my distance would otherwise require getting my mics farther apart than I can manage in order to get a good stereo image. So long as the stacks are still within the fat part of the heart-shaped pickup pattern, you still get direct PA sound but with a bit more separation.

[fanofjam]

If every live music recording situation presents itself the same way, then you're probably going to be spot on doing PAS with directional mics from the sweet spot with mics on a stand 3 or more feet above the crowd.  But a) you don't always have that level of control, and b) when you DO have that level of control, you can do WAY better.  So, those of us that like to dive deeper equip ourselves with knowledge, such as different mic patterns, different mic configurations, and different stage micing techniques in order to adapt for getting the most out of every situation as it presents itself.  Beyond that, the subject matter is encyclopedia-ic and has those of us that love this hobby occupied for 20-or-30 years discussing situations we encounter and how to best capture the sound in those situations.

[fanofjam]

Assuming you're talking about directional mics here, here's just one example: I've had success pointing cards slightly wider than the stacks, if I'm in a position where my distance would otherwise require getting my mics farther apart than I can manage in order to get a good stereo image. So long as the stacks are still within the fat part of the heart-shaped pickup pattern, you still get direct PA sound but with a bit more separation.

I recorded in a room in Morgantown, WV that's deep and narrow with brick walls.  The PA speakers were essentially against either of the side walls.  Very boomy and reverb-y room.  PAS was NOT the way to go in that room because you were too far back in the room to get a good sound.  It was better just to get as close to the stage as possible and get as much of the stage sound as you could, or just do stage micing which I never did there.  I think once I recorded vocals to its own channel from a mic I ran to the stage monitor, otherwise vocals never turned out in that place.

[morst]

If you have mics which do not have off-axis response similar to on-axis response, sure PAS.


But some mics are made to have even response no matter which way they are "aimed", as referenced in their polar pattern charts.


Stereo Recording Angle is a whole thing, and I'm no expert, but have made LOTS successful recordings with mics aimed WAY wider than the stacks.


https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-recording-tools

[DuctTaper42]

You certainly can just PAS every time and I'm sure get acceptable results a majority of the time (assuming a mostly/entirely PA mix like you mention) but there's a number of reasons people may not choose to do that.

Some folks run the same layout (ORTF, DIN, etc) everywhere they go which can have some benefits like ease of quick setup not having to do any adjusting whether that's because they don't want to or because they might not have time. Could also be an "ol' reliable" concept of them knowing and liking what the array sounds like and just putting that in the best spot they can. I'd imagine those established stereo arrays were developed to try and replicate how human hearing perceives stereo so putting your array of choice in whatever spot you're able is akin to putting a head there and knowing that's what it'll sound like in a sense of consistency and knowing what to expect.

On the other side of the spectrum if, let's say, you PAS but you're wayyyyyyy back in an arena or large field there will be very little angle between the mics; if you don't/can't adjust the spacing as well it may end up sounding more mono than you'd like. That's why Gutbucket developed his Improved PAS technique https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.0 which has a spacing to go along with the various angles to get roughly the same amount of "stereoness" at any given angle. Yes it requires some calculating (or guessing if you don't have the tools and/or do have a decent idea of the concepts: less angle = more spacing, more angle = less spacing) but it's in attempt of maximizing results and will most assuredly net better results than fixed spacing with variable angle.

If you have a fixed spacing and just PAS everywhere you go every recording will have a different amount/flavor of stereo imaging that you won't know until you listen later. While it will always maximize the ratio of direct source to reflections, the angle is just one variable in the array so without consideration of the other variables, it's uncertain what the overall recording will sound like and there likely won't be much consistency from one to the next, even if it's just a different location in the same venue. Will it be noticeable? Who knows, but it will be different.

Everything is a compromise of some sort so you just have to decide where your priorities lie.

[VibrationOfLife]

This is why:  A really crappy coffee house room where you have to dial in the mic positions.  It was not easy and it definitely deviated from my normal DIN with my CM4's which would not have worked, nor pointed at the stacks which were off/on/barely functional.  But flexibility works. I check my sight lines and always have phones on.  I think I rose and lowered my stand 10x before pressing record just looking at the sonic environment.  While rigid mic "systems" can usually pay off, especially in larger spaces, sometimes the taper tweeking means a hellava lot.  I blow it sometimes, but sometimes I get it right.

https://archive.org/details/valley-groove-company-03202025-flac-24

[grawk]

For most of us, this is a hobby.  If pointing the mics at the stacks and capturing audio is fulfilling to you, I'm sure people will appreciate the recordings existing.  Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle.  But you can definitely do better by applying the theory to it, if your gear is up to the task.

For me, the joy in an audience recording is hearing what the music sounds like in the room filled with people.  A well done ortf or din recording with good mics transports me to the venue as I listen.  I blame the mushrooms I took at that concert in 1989, tho.

[EmRR]

For open taping MS, double MS, ambisonics, and horizontal B format are all good options that can somewhat land at PAS or other virtual positions. Not exactly the same, but adds a flexibility otherwise difficult to do in post.  Mind you, can't do a shotgun pattern with that but then if you have enough channels to work with you can always include shotguns with those. 

[rocksuitcase]

For most of us, this is a hobby.  If pointing the mics at the stacks and capturing audio is fulfilling to you, I'm sure people will appreciate the recordings existing.  Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle.  But you can definitely do better by applying the theory to it, if your gear is up to the task.

For me, the joy in an audience recording is hearing what the music sounds like in the room filled with people.  A well done ortf or din recording with good mics transports me to the venue as I listen.  I blame the mushrooms I took at that concert in 1989, tho.

This is why after the second time we patched out of some NAk guns in 1982 we decided never again and made sure to have our own mics at every show. From that point through my 200+ shows recorded we never used Naks nor patched out of them unless it was the ONLY option.
Not that there is anything wrong with those recordings, just that I, along with many other critical listeners in my orbit, did not prefer their sound.

[grawk]

Yup, I blame those tapes for the typical disdain for audience recordings.  I've never preferred a soundboard to a tape done right in the right spot.

For most of us, this is a hobby.  If pointing the mics at the stacks and capturing audio is fulfilling to you, I'm sure people will appreciate the recordings existing.  Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle.  But you can definitely do better by applying the theory to it, if your gear is up to the task.

For me, the joy in an audience recording is hearing what the music sounds like in the room filled with people.  A well done ortf or din recording with good mics transports me to the venue as I listen.  I blame the mushrooms I took at that concert in 1989, tho.

This is why after the second time we patched out of some NAk guns in 1982 we decided never again and made sure to have our own mics at every show. From that point through my 200+ shows recorded we never used Naks nor patched out of them unless it was the ONLY option.
Not that there is anything wrong with those recordings, just that I, along with many other critical listeners in my orbit, did not prefer their sound.

[Gutbucket]

I must have been at that same show as Grawk back in the late 80's!

PAS helps maximize direct-sound clarity, when the primary source of direct-sound clarity at the recording position is the PA. Since sufficient clarity is of primary importance, that makes PAS a good taper strategy in many common taper situations. Improved PAS then optimizes further for stereo width and image. In combination with choosing the most appropriate polar pattern, that's as far as many tapers will ever need or want to take things to make good sounding audience recordings.

But of course some of us take things farther in persuit of a teleportation-time-machine-like experience of sounding like being there again, including all the subtle details of audience, ambience, room, even mindset, and memories of the formative concert experiences that changed our lives forever

[checht]

...Most Grateful Dead tapes were Nak CM300 shotguns pointed at the stacks, with maybe an omni mixed in the middle.

^Citation needed. I don't agree that most recordings were 300 PAS. Certainly not from the original section, which was the close version. Ask Frank Streeter, Robert Byrant, Jon or Steve.

I have zero of them in my collection First recording in 82 used AKGs then I switched to KMi84s and homemade electronics. Lots of DiIN and X/Y not PAS. They're on the archive if you'd like to check.