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Author Topic: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results  (Read 19895 times)

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Offline cj.flac

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Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« on: April 23, 2025, 05:13:42 PM »
Hello, I'm quite new to this hobby. I was inspired to pick taping up by Mike Ziegler, who roadied for and taped my favorite band, Unwound (I didn't ask him a thing about Nirvana when we met :yack:). I've acquired some entry-level gear: a Tascam DR-40X, Zoom H1n, two tripods, and a couple of external stealth mics (AT943 cardioid pair courtesy of tgakidis, CA-14 omnis that came in yesterday). I mainly record up and coming local (mostly loud rock) bands in DIY-type spaces. Despite most smaller venues in my location (Las Vegas) and artists allowing open taping, I'm still wrestling with optimal mic placement, while remaining unobtrusive to the crowd.

To go over how I currently tape (which I'm having varied results with):
The H1n is primarily used for PIP with the AT943 cards on a hat mount in the "sweet spot". I don't really understand how to do the geometry of PAS, but with the limited angling I can do with alligator clips, I point these out towards the PA stacks.
The DR-40X I either use to get an XLR feed (stereo mix, usually) from the soundboard, or placed out of the way of the crowd by the FOH, in more restrictive circumstances (usually results are sub-par, not much of an upgrade from a phone and quite reverberant). I tried a flash drive on a Midas board, which worked, but is at the mercy of the soundboard operator remembering to press record or not.

I have a few odd questions to get off my chest, mostly technique related.
  • Are omnis appropriate for hat mounting at all, regarding PAS technique?
  • Let's say I'm in a club that's standing room only. If it's not especially crowded or busy, do you just place your mounts or tripods in the center of the room, pointing at stage? I'm concerned about it being annoying or a tripping hazard to other attendees. With a Tascam, a tripod, and the band/venue approval, what other places could I put this recorder that would make sense, including the stage?
  • I recently picked up a mannequin to try out HRTF-style recording at DIY spots. Are omnis or cards more appropriate to stick to its "ears"? I'm aware that bringing in a janky mannequin is not going to fly with too many venues without some very sweet talking :lol:
  • What would be a decent upgrade path for my gear? From lurking, I can see that the Zoom H series is not very popular due to its noise floor. For now, I'm more concerned with being able to ditch the hat mount and am looking towards things like this mount so I can have a beer without worrying about self noise ;)
  • What resources are there for mixing AUD/SBD sources? What process do you usually go through when mixing AUD/SBD sources, or multiple AUD mics? My mixes so far (in Adobe Audition) have been just lining the sources up as best I can, maybe some EQing/envelope tooling, and just putting out what sounds okay to me (through headphones and cheap nearfields). I've received advice to split my stereo AUD tracks into mono, hard pan, and then EQ according to the instruments that are emphasized in each individual mono track - but it's a lot of work, and my attempts to do so usually end in a worse result. How meticulous is your process? Do you outsource mixing to other people?

As a thank you for reading through my questions, get a load of this dummy! :lol:

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2025, 05:43:12 PM »
Not much time now but will quickly answer a few..

1. Are omnis appropriate for hat mounting at all, regarding PAS technique?
Yes.  You don't need to point really tiny omnis since they are truly omnidirectional due to their small size.  How you mount them around the "baffle" (in this case your head, and maybe parts of the hat) is what imparts directionality to them.  The baffle essentially reduces the level of pickup from the opposite side.

2. Let's say I'm in a club that's standing room only. If it's not especially crowded or busy, do you just place your mounts or tripods in the center of the room, pointing at stage?
Yes!

3. I'm concerned about it being annoying or a tripping hazard to other attendees. With a Tascam, a tripod, and the band/venue approval, what other places could I put this recorder that would make sense, including the stage? 
Depends.  Sweet spot in the middle of the room is hard to beat for sound.  Front row of a balcony works well.  Hanging mics can work.  Off to one side in line with the PA can work.  At the soundboard area is usually easiest, and generally sounds good since that is where the sound guy is listening.  Walk around while listening critically and you can home in on the best spots. That's a good thing to do if music is playing over the PA before folks arrive. Onstage can make really great instrumental recordings, but if there are vocals or certain instruments that only go through the PA that gets tricker.

4. I recently picked up a mannequin to try out HRTF-style recording at DIY spots. Are omnis or cards more appropriate to stick to its "ears"? I'm aware that bringing in a janky mannequin is not going to fly with too many venues without some very sweet talking :lol: 
Omnis if IN the ears. That makes a 'binaural' recording that will sound very natural over headphones.  If in a hat or on glasses near the ears, you can use either pattern.  Omni will sound more natural but pickup more noise around you.  Either way, you'll need to not turn your head much or you will hear that on the recording.  Omnis allow you to look up and down and nod your head or whatever without a problem, cardioids less so.
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Offline dyneq

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2025, 09:28:40 PM »
Should we address you or the dummy? ;^)

1. Yes, with one caveat. As the name suggests, the capsule picks up sound equally in all directions. To reduce unwanted sounds, get closer to the PA and, where possible, surround yourself with quiet people. Getting them higher also helps limit unwanted noise.

2. Yes, but also consider a ceiling mount if the venue is amenable. The ceiling acts as an acoustic barrier, so test distances beforehand if possible.

3. See above. For loud rock, you want to capture the cymbals and vocals from the PA but not be so far away that you pick up crowd and bar noise.

4. Omnis on either side of the highest point. Consider raising it up to reduce unwanted noise if necessary.

Offline fanofjam

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2025, 11:15:49 PM »

Some more input/feedback...

1) Are omnis appropriate for hat mounting at all, regarding PAS technique?

To expound on what others have said, I suggest that you read all you can about how two mics are used to create stereo effect... and understand the concepts and then apply them to your recording situations.  For example, learn how directional mics (cardioids, subcards, hypercards) can create a stereo image on a recording by 'hearing' differences in sound pressure levels between on-axis and off-axis sounds resulting from placing the mics in various configurations (ORTF, DIN, DINa, etc), while any pair of mics (directional or omni) can create stereo imaging by recording differences in time by having the mics separated on the horizontal plane from each other. 

Hat mounting is very appropriate for omni's because the omni's end up acting similar to your ears when it comes to 'hearing' what is being recorded.  Since your ears are located on either side of your head, about six inches apart from each other, facing directionally opposite from each other, one omni microphone on either side of your head does essentially the same thing.  The stereo image is created by two things...1) your head separates the mics by six inches (17cm) so that sound coming from your right gets to the right mic a fraction of a second before it gets to the left mic and vice versa for sounds coming from the left getting to the right mic.  2) your head is also a baffle so that sounds from the right of the room gets somewhat attenuated in the left mic, and vice versa.  Both of these things cause the recording to recreate the imaging you experience in the live setting by creating tiny differences in sound dynamics between the two channels, so that you'll hear the stereo imaging when you listen back later. 


2) Let's say I'm in a club that's standing room only. If it's not especially crowded or busy, do you just place your mounts or tripods in the center of the room, pointing at stage? I'm concerned about it being annoying or a tripping hazard to other attendees. With a Tascam, a tripod, and the band/venue approval, what other places could I put this recorder that would make sense, including the stage?

YES!  As a taper, you MUST get comfortable putting your stand up in the middle of a venue if you want to get the best sound possible...or as others have suggested directly in front of the board.  I mean, it's just something you have to get used to.  It comes with practice, but you learn to grow a pair of balls and kind of walk in like you own the place...ESPECIALLY in situations where you know either the band or the club are taper friendly.  The best thing to do is to get there at doors and very first thing you do when the doors open is set up your stand.  That way you're already staked out your territory, not many people are there and as the crowd develops, they just naturally form around you.  If the audience is there first and THEN you arrive, sometimes people will give you the stink-eye because they don't want a stand in their sight lines...but those same people are usually the ones that ask you for a copy of the recording later, so once again, just get there early and set up.  After you do this a few times, it gets easy and you don't think twice about it.

3) I recently picked up a mannequin to try out HRTF-style recording at DIY spots. Are omnis or cards more appropriate to stick to its "ears"? I'm aware that bringing in a janky mannequin is not going to fly with too many venues without some very sweet talking :lol:

Instead of a complete manequin, you can buy just the styrofoam head and use those.  The band moe. always uses a styrofoam head to record the ambient sound during their shows and then mixes that into their SBD recordings that they sell on-line.  The head has a name, but I don't remember his name.  He has his own pair of sunglasses and over the years, he's grown a mustache.  LOL.  He got kidnapped at one point, but I think I read that he got returned...or maybe the kidnapped one just got murdered and moe. ended up replacing the original one. 

4) What would be a decent upgrade path for my gear? From lurking, I can see that the Zoom H series is not very popular due to its noise floor. For now, I'm more concerned with being able to ditch the hat mount and am looking towards things like this mount so I can have a beer without worrying about self noise ;)

Once I went from stealth recording to stand recording, my enjoyment of shows increased exponentially.  I do still stealth shows, but it's SUCH a pain in the ass compared to shows that I can record open.  I target bands that are open taping so that I can enjoy it alot more.  But yes, get yourself a stand and mounting gear, put your mics up on the stand and enjoy the show.

The other thing about stand mounting is that you can manage crowd noise.  By raising the mics about 3 feet or so above the heads of everyone, you effectively put chompers into the background, especially if the PA volume is pretty loud.

The only negative about stand mounting is that you have to pay attention to people tripping over during the show.  It depends on the specific venue and show, but if there's a band that I really want the best sound possible, I'll set up dead center and deal with blocking all night.  I'll take my flashlight and courteously light people's way as they walk past my stand so that they can see and don't trip over the legs.  If the band isn't that important or if the sound is really great in a venue, I'll set up back by the board and generally don't have to worry about the stand as much if it's out of the way.  Some FOH guys will let me put my stand inside the cage area if there's room.  That's really nice because in that case obviously I don't have to worry about trip hazard at all.

And yes, being able to be free to grab a beer or three makes all the difference in the world to your enjoyment of a show.  Yeah, I want to get a good recording, but I'm there to enjoy a live show as well.

5) What resources are there for mixing AUD/SBD sources? What process do you usually go through when mixing AUD/SBD sources, or multiple AUD mics? My mixes so far (in Adobe Audition) have been just lining the sources up as best I can, maybe some EQing/envelope tooling, and just putting out what sounds okay to me (through headphones and cheap nearfields). I've received advice to split my stereo AUD tracks into mono, hard pan, and then EQ according to the instruments that are emphasized in each individual mono track - but it's a lot of work, and my attempts to do so usually end in a worse result. How meticulous is your process? Do you outsource mixing to other people?

If you have Adobe Audition, you have everything you need.  If I record by the board and get a board feed, I'll use one of my multi-track recorders to record both mics and SBD onto the same recorder.  That way all tracks are time synched, though I might need to slide the SBD track back a couple of milli-seconds so that it matched up with the ambient tracks (since the tracks have latency between them).  But if your sources come from two different recorders, yeah you'll probably have to use Audition to stretch or shrink one of the recordings to match the other.  It's easy to do in Audition...just use the stretch tool and zoom in to find a drum beat at the beginning of the show (and synch them up in Audition) and another at the end of the show and align them up using the stretch tool.  I find that you might have to do the stretch a few times in order to get perfect alignment, but it doesn't take long.  You also might need to break both recordings down by tracks and then align them track by track.  Sometimes I've had drop-outs on one or the other recordings so in that case, a track by track alignment is probably needed,

As far as your friends suggestion to EQ according to instruments on each mono track...fuck that!  Too much work, unless you happened to have recorded, say, eight tracks with all of the instruments on stage being individually mic'ed up and recorded onto their own ISO track.  But if you just have an AUD and a SBD, to me the biggest decision is to how much to mix either recording in the final mix.  Like for example, should the final have 40% SBD and 60% AUD, 50/50?, 70/30?.  Audition is easy because you can preview the mix before rendering the final master so that you decide what sounds best.

And just so you know...you're DEFINITELY not alone when you mix your recordings down today, then come back tomorrow and completely hate what you ended up with today.  It's so funny how that works.  You'll spend two hours with a damn recording getting the EXACTLY PERFECT mixdown between AUD and SBD, and then a day or two later you come back and listen and say WTF was I thinking?  LOL...

Good luck man!  I'm jealous that you're just at the beginning of a VERY fun journey.

Offline morst

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2025, 11:32:24 PM »
Fantastic questions. Welcome to the, site and congrats on your expanding hobby!


Here's my old blog about mixing sources from two different clocks, it was made for an old version of Audacity, but the notion applies to other DAW software as well. I am happy to field questions if you have them.
https://morst.blogspot.com/2010/03/this-is-follow-up-of-sorts-to-my-post.html


If you are running two different machines, with two different clocks (thumbdrive in SBD, plus mics on a stand somewhere for instance) this spreadsheet might be helpful for you to calculate the speed change either as percentage, or just tell the DAW how long you want the second file to be after sync.
It's set so only I can edit it, so please download it to make your own changes to it. Feel free to delete my "sample data" which is actually a lot of my conversions, as dated!


 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pQGfYwPgBFFzcY5m6aRj-Zbu9HsRumLy-tJB1d8Eufg/edit?gid=583050244#gid=583050244

Offline VibrationOfLife

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2025, 06:48:14 PM »
Just a couple things to suggest:

Given the music type you plan/record, watch the SPL on those omni's.  You could easily find yourself blowing them out and it doesn't matter what bitrate you are recording in.

Look into creative clamping.  You would be surprised what is possible to clamp to, and it really gets your stuff out of the way.  There is a great clamp thread here with tons of ideas.  It also greatly reduces your kit, and provides protection at the same time by default.

Happy recording, and don't forget ...

Offline seethreepo

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2025, 08:59:52 PM »
Fwiw you could.d get by with a mannequin head / foam wig head vs  a half body mannequin.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2025, 12:22:19 PM »
Either way, you'll need to not turn your head much or you will hear that on the recording.  Omnis allow you to look up and down and nod your head or whatever without a problem, cardioids less so.

This is why I've ended up consistently opting for upper chest rather than head for mounting tiny omnis (and moved to 100% omni for stealth recording). Allows me to look around, bob my head, etc with little to no effect on the recording

Offline fanofjam

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2025, 03:34:27 PM »

This is why I've ended up consistently opting for upper chest rather than head for mounting tiny omnis (and moved to 100% omni for stealth recording). Allows me to look around, bob my head, etc with little to no effect on the recording

Yep...me too.  I recently fashioned a harness for myself out of duct tape and have re-used it four or five shows now.  I think it works fantastic. 

It looks like a bra without any booby cups.  It's virtually undetectable except for the bumps under my shirt at the tops of my shoulders which nobody is ever going to question (...that says nothing about the bumps made by my moobs, which perhaps COULD use booby cups, but let's save that for another stealthing thread...LOL).

I tape my mics to the tops of both shoulder straps, splayed outward in as close to 90-degree angle as I can eyeball.  It's approximately NOS spacing...using my Line Audio CM3 cards.  Works like a charm and I'll NEVER go back to hat mounting.

I'm probably going to sew myself something a little more formal and sew in some velcro for both mic and cable management, as well as ease of putting it on and taking it off by putting in a velcro front strap/clasp (think clips on the back of a bra, only in front.)  I'll probably still use duct tape for securing the mics because it works best at keeping the mics from moving during the show.  Velco can work, but it also can be a little iffy as the night wears on the mics can work themselves free under velcro.  Never happens under duct tape.  Just remember to take the tape off immediately after the show so you have less chance of leaving tape residue on your mics...or use more expensive gaff tape instead.

FWIW I don't stand still during the show....I dance a little bit and whatnot...I don't detect imaging changing in my recordings even though I'm using cards and I do both master and listen back through headphones.  I also have the Line Audio omni's but I prefer stealthing with my cardiods since they do help in cutting down on the chomping.  People in front are facing away and people behind are off axis.

EDIT AN HOUR OR TWO LATER TO ADD:  Another nice thing about this harness design is that, once you get the harness on and the mics positioned on your shoulders, just reach under either the front or back of your shirt to give the harness a tug under each of the shoulder straps to kind of pull the shoulder straps backwards or forwards to angle the mics a little bit upwards so they're better pointed towards the stacks.  All you have to do is feel their position on your shoulder blades to know that they're angled upwards a little bit...simple to do without looking and making it obvious what you're going.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 05:22:12 PM by fanofjam »

Offline morst

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2025, 04:27:27 PM »
Velco can work, but it also can be a little iffy as the night wears on the mics can work themselves free under velcro.  Never happens under duct tape.  Just remember to take the tape off immediately after the show so you have less chance of leaving tape residue on your mics...or use more expensive gaff tape instead.
Brief Threadjack: Gaff Tape
Even the expensive stuff can leave a terrible residue if left on for weeks in the heat, or perhaps longer in moderate conditions.
If anyone knows how to get that residue off, please let me know, maybe start a new thread, so we don't super hijack this good and interesting one!

Offline VibrationOfLife

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2025, 11:10:12 PM »
Velco can work, but it also can be a little iffy as the night wears on the mics can work themselves free under velcro.  Never happens under duct tape.  Just remember to take the tape off immediately after the show so you have less chance of leaving tape residue on your mics...or use more expensive gaff tape instead.
Brief Threadjack: Gaff Tape
Even the expensive stuff can leave a terrible residue if left on for weeks in the heat, or perhaps longer in moderate conditions.
If anyone knows how to get that residue off, please let me know, maybe start a new thread, so we don't super hijack this good and interesting one!

Goo Gone.

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2025, 12:02:28 PM »

This is why I've ended up consistently opting for upper chest rather than head for mounting tiny omnis (and moved to 100% omni for stealth recording). Allows me to look around, bob my head, etc with little to no effect on the recording

Yep...me too.  I recently fashioned a harness for myself out of duct tape and have re-used it four or five shows now.  I think it works fantastic. 


Very cool sounding setup! I'm just a tape under a light shirt kinda guy, mostly out of laziness, but having something more permanent sounds great

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2025, 05:10:32 PM »
Velco can work, but it also can be a little iffy as the night wears on the mics can work themselves free under velcro.  Never happens under duct tape.  Just remember to take the tape off immediately after the show so you have less chance of leaving tape residue on your mics...or use more expensive gaff tape instead.
Brief Threadjack: Gaff Tape
Even the expensive stuff can leave a terrible residue if left on for weeks in the heat, or perhaps longer in moderate conditions.
If anyone knows how to get that residue off, please let me know, maybe start a new thread, so we don't super hijack this good and interesting one!

Goo Gone.

The formula may have changed since I last used it years ago, but beware that Goo Gone at least used to melt some plastics.  Be careful.

Acetone works great but will also melt some plastics. 90% denatured alcohol doesn't work quite as well but is safer. Lighter fluid may work better than alcohol, but test first.  Plain ole elbow grease always works!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2025, 05:24:55 PM »

This is why I've ended up consistently opting for upper chest rather than head for mounting tiny omnis (and moved to 100% omni for stealth recording). Allows me to look around, bob my head, etc with little to no effect on the recording

Yep...me too.  I recently fashioned a harness for myself out of duct tape and have re-used it four or five shows now.  I think it works fantastic.

Is this section of the forum open to non-members? Any easy way to determine which sections are and which are not?

Was going to comment on stealth technique, but only if this thread is for "TS eyes only".
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Newbie looking to improve on recording setup and results
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2025, 11:56:59 AM »

^ I don't think anyone really cares anymore about openly talking about stealth. There's threads about what IEM that Bob Dylan is using, etc. The days of keep stealth stealth are long gone.
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