Topic: Optimize my 4 channel technique

[captainentropy]

Taping two shows next week, at The Chapel in SF. I've taped there a few times (https://archive.org/details/@captainentropy?query=chapel). Very friendly venue. I go straight to the balcony and set up there. The photos below are what the room looks like; first is from the balcony looking to the stage, the second (taken from this this comment https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191953.msg2374005#msg2374005) is a perfect view of the balcony from the floor.

I have the following mics sets at my disposal right now:

AKG C414 XLS
Austrian Audio CC8 (cardioid)
Neumann KM150 (hyper cardioid; AK50 caps + nBob actives)
Nevaton MC59/W (wide cardioid)

For recorders I have a MixPre-3 II, a MixPre-6 II, and a Zoom F3.

I have traditional clips and mounts I can use for the SD mics and the standard AKG shock mount for the C414s, or SRS mounts for the Nevatons (DIN), which will also fit the CC8s, and the Neumanns (DINA, ORTF). All the mounting stuff is reasonably covered. What I'm wanting to settle on is the geometry for a 4 channel set up (using the MP6). Or 6, or 8 even adding in the other decks. The artist is Panda Bear, one of the members of Animal Collective. I've seen him before, but never taped. Doubt I can get a SBD. I think the closest in sound dynamics to his project I would anticipate (music plus the room) would be his bandmate's show also at The Chapel (Avey Tare, see my LMA collection). IMO that show came out fantastic. But. Can I do better with what I have!? I've read some good ideas here https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=72951.0;all but this is a small room. I don't think omni config for the AKGs would be smart, but my wide cards sound really good in that room. So who knows. Hence, asking the hive mind.

[admkrk]

I would start with the C414s in omni spread as far as you can go. Hard to go wrong with that. Mixed with a coincident pair of one of the other mics should be good. I would run my 140s ORTF out of habit, but I am not sure I ever recorded in that narrow of a venue.

[rocksuitcase]

JUst like in your second photo, I'd go with 414's omni spread wide and the Neumann's in the middle.
It couldn't hurt to put the Austrian Audio's in between one omni and the center pair on each side, the cardioid facing either FWD, or 45' angled
ENJOY!

[captainentropy]

JUst like in your second photo, I'd go with 414's omni spread wide and the Neumann's in the middle.
It couldn't hurt to put the Austrian Audio's in between one omni and the center pair on each side, the cardioid facing either FWD, or 45' angled
ENJOY!

I've done wide omnis in amphitheaters, but never in a small venue (~350 ppl). Have you done that successfully? It might have been the Oddball thread that omnis indoor were discouraged. Dunno. Never tried it. I did the wide cards, wide, about 4 ft, with the CC8s in between at the Fox Theater for GYBE recently. I was hoping to get more bass out of that, but not really. (Still sounds good though ) https://archive.org/details/gybe2025-05-04.4ch-mix

How far apart are the mics in FWD? A/B is straight forward but spaced wide, yes?

[taperdave1998]

C414s wide omni, I'm all for it.
Run the 150s in DINa

[captainentropy]

I would start with the C414s in omni spread as far as you can go. Hard to go wrong with that. Mixed with a coincident pair of one of the other mics should be good. I would run my 140s ORTF out of habit, but I am not sure I ever recorded in that narrow of a venue.

It's pretty narrow. So you don't think LD omnis would end up too muddy?

[goodcooker]

I would start with the C414s in omni spread as far as you can go. Hard to go wrong with that. Mixed with a coincident pair of one of the other mics should be good. I would run my 140s ORTF out of habit, but I am not sure I ever recorded in that narrow of a venue.

It's pretty narrow. So you don't think LD omnis would end up too muddy?

I tend to not use omnis indoors at all for amplified rock music especially in spaces that are long and narrow like the one you mention here.

I would go in the opposite direction than most of the suggestions here and mount the wide cardioids AB with a 3-4 ft split and run hypers DINa in the middle. Maybe even less angle than that to not have them pointed at the side walls.

But that just me and my humble opinion. I've found that I prefer the sound of directional mics with more on axis content when recording PA systems from a distance. Onstage, stagelip, FOB sweet spot - those are all different and I'd lean towards more open patterns and wider spacing with more angle but from far away in a narrow room I think that getting all the mics pointed at the source is the way to go.

[rocksuitcase]

JUst like in your second photo, I'd go with 414's omni spread wide and the Neumann's in the middle.
It couldn't hurt to put the Austrian Audio's in between one omni and the center pair on each side, the cardioid facing either FWD, or 45' angled
ENJOY!

I've done wide omnis in amphitheaters, but never in a small venue (~350 ppl). Have you done that successfully? It might have been the Oddball thread that omnis indoor were discouraged. Dunno. Never tried it. I did the wide cards, wide, about 4 ft, with the CC8s in between at the Fox Theater for GYBE recently. I was hoping to get more bass out of that, but not really. (Still sounds good though ) https://archive.org/details/gybe2025-05-04.4ch-mix

How far apart are the mics in FWD? A/B is straight forward but spaced wide, yes?

I meant FWD as in 0 degrees, FACING forward, sorry for using abbreviations when I shouldn't have. That makes it sort of A/B as a 5/6 set of mics in your OMT6. (of course, any of these can be not used in the mix, it just gives you options/possibilities you don't have if you don;t run them)
edit to add about far apart- I think GB rec's doing half way between the center pair and the wide pair. So, if your wide pair is four feet apart, 2 feet from center each direction, then the 5/6 pair is 2 feet part, one foot from center each direction.

I have run wide omnis as far as 8 feet apart in small rooms, even narrow rooms (AKG ck22, DPA 4061). I would tend to go with goodcookers advice though, if that far back in a balcony situation, surely a coincident pair in the middle plus anything wide will give more space. Omnis *might* give you more bass, but at the expense of the added room reflections.

[captainentropy]

JUst like in your second photo, I'd go with 414's omni spread wide and the Neumann's in the middle.
It couldn't hurt to put the Austrian Audio's in between one omni and the center pair on each side, the cardioid facing either FWD, or 45' angled
ENJOY!

I've done wide omnis in amphitheaters, but never in a small venue (~350 ppl). Have you done that successfully? It might have been the Oddball thread that omnis indoor were discouraged. Dunno. Never tried it. I did the wide cards, wide, about 4 ft, with the CC8s in between at the Fox Theater for GYBE recently. I was hoping to get more bass out of that, but not really. (Still sounds good though ) https://archive.org/details/gybe2025-05-04.4ch-mix

How far apart are the mics in FWD? A/B is straight forward but spaced wide, yes?

I meant FWD as in 0 degrees, FACING forward, sorry for using abbreviations when I shouldn't have. That makes it sort of A/B as a 5/6 set of mics in your OMT6. (of course, any of these can be not used in the mix, it just gives you options/possibilities you don't have if you don;t run them)
edit to add about far apart- I think GB rec's doing half way between the center pair and the wide pair. So, if your wide pair is four feet apart, 2 feet from center each direction, then the 5/6 pair is 2 feet part, one foot from center each direction.

I have run wide omnis as far as 8 feet apart in small rooms, even narrow rooms (AKG ck22, DPA 4061). I would tend to go with goodcookers advice though, if that far back in a balcony situation, surely a coincident pair in the middle plus anything wide will give more space. Omnis *might* give you more bass, but at the expense of the added room reflections.

OK, that makes sense. I understood FWD as "forward" I just didn't catch the meaning in regard to placement where you said.

[captainentropy]

It seems like the suggestions are split, wide ( ) between omnis split wide with fill in between, and wides split wide with hypers (XY or DINa) in the middle.

I do know my Nevaton MC59W (wides) in DINa do sound good in this venue. I was hoping to improve it with more mics. Since the C414s are LD mics, would there be any advantage to running them in a particular pattern in place of one of the other fixed pattern mics? IOW, would the characteristics of a larger diaphragm improve the sound in a small venue like this over a small diaphragm mic of the same pattern? Not sure the question is clear. I guess it's more about LD vs SD in a small venue when not on the stage?

[Top Hat]

In the end I USE one set of mics 90% of the time. No reason to wash out your imaging using some elaborate array of differing patterns. I always get sh!t for this. I have used closely paired coincident mics before of the same brand but card and hyper in DIN/DINa stacked one on top of each other. The sines were so closely paired that in my ears it complimented each other nicely without any post coloring. If it was me I would run the Neumans in DINa > MP6ii and call it good. Those are solid mics and will perform great. If you have any stage access, run the 414s split stage in CARD on axis and try to space away from the drums. The 414s would be closer to the source and should provide a bit more clarity and room you desire without causing phasing issues when matrixed with your 150s.

[ol' dirty taper]

It seems like the suggestions are split, wide ( ) between omnis split wide with fill in between, and wides split wide with hypers (XY or DINa) in the middle.

I do know my Nevaton MC59W (wides) in DINa do sound good in this venue. I was hoping to improve it with more mics. Since the C414s are LD mics, would there be any advantage to running them in a particular pattern in place of one of the other fixed pattern mics? IOW, would the characteristics of a larger diaphragm improve the sound in a small venue like this over a small diaphragm mic of the same pattern? Not sure the question is clear. I guess it's more about LD vs SD in a small venue when not on the stage?

Go for coincident patterning and your life will be way easier and headache free. DINa/ORTF together are fine. I think the answer to what sounds better is going to unfortunately end up being a "trial and error" scenario at the venue in question. Might find that two pairs in A/B sound great, or DIN etc etc.

[HealthCov Chris]

From the balcony, I would definately run the Neuman 50's centered in DINa or PAS, because you know they will sound great alone.  Anything after that is simply experimental for future shows there.  If you are willing to bring all the gear then spread it out.  Run your cards centered in DIN or PAS.  Run your wide-cards split a bit in A/B.  Do whatever the heck you want with the 414's (I like them in hyper setting), but try omni if you want.  I'd just hate to waste that sweet LD sound in omni if its not right for that location and venue.  That should give you all sorts of fun to fool around with at home in post.  Just let us know what you find.

[captainentropy]

Last night was night 1 of 2. I wasn't certain what the balcony setup would be like, it totally depends on what their visuals team has in mind, or if there are reserved seats, etc. So, unfortunately they had this massive projector, an old Epson from probably the 00's and a massive rolling Pelican case to carry it and the visuals person with their computer setup so all of this took up the middle and right thirds of the balcony. I shared space with another taper, on the post/rail space just to the right (looking at the pic) of the middle, red circle. So, it wasn't possible to setup anything more elaborate than a single set of mics. So I used the same setup I've used to great results before for Avey Tare and GY!BE: Nevaton MC59W (wide cardioids) and my MP3-II.

However, I do know the visuals guy, so tonight I'll see if I can clamp in that space, otherwise it'll be the same rig but I'll also add an XY pair of cardioids. It'll be on the LMA in a day or so. The band was hoping they'd have tapers on some of their shows (so, SF to the rescue!) and requested the files too.

[Gutbucket]

Many roads to Rome, and different ways to make a good recoding.  As I see it the posts above fall into two categories.  A few thoughts on both-

One approach is a straight near-spaced pair, such as Chris and Top Hat mention.  Two near-spaced pairs stacked atop each other also fit in this category:

• Straightforward and simple.  DIN, DINa, PAS.
• Looking at the photos (cool venue!), the room appears narrow with the balcony toward the back of the room, both of which make PAS attractive.  If going that route, I'd use whatever spacing Improved PAS suggests based on the PAS angle, which is likely going to be wider than the spacing of DIN if the PAS angle is narrower than 90deg (and it probably will be).

The other is a multi-microphone OMT type array. I've mentioned most of this elsewhere before, but here are the salient points:

• Imaging can be just as good if not better in comparison to to a straight 2-mic pair, yet can certainly suffer if not done correctly, same as with a straight 2ch stereo pair.  It does provide more opportunities to screw things up though!

OMT 4-

• X/Y Hypercards/supercards in the center.
• Cards or subcards spaced around 2 feet apart and angled +/-45 degrees.
  Why 2 feet? To accommodate the X/Y pair in the center.  DIN or NOS does not provide sufficient space between mics to properly accommodate a coincident pair in the middle. This is one of the "doing it correctly for good imaging" things.  If you want to run DIN or NOS, you don't need the center pair, but also won't benefit as much from its inclusion.
• If you want to run the cards or subcards in PAS, space them more widely than 2 feet to accommodate the narrower PAS angle.

OMT6 or higher-

• OMT 4 as above, with the addition of wide-spaced omnis.
• Omnis can certainly work indoors and in this situation, but not as the primary or even secondary pair.  I'd only include them as a 3rd pair, most likely used at a lower level in the mix than all other mics, to round out the low frequency response, provide open decorrelated ambience / room sound in support of the other pairs, and add a subtle sense of 3d depth to the imaging.  I'd probably space them 8 feet apart, at least 6, but you could go considerably wider since they'll be used in support of the other pairs.  When listened to in isolation the omni pair will probably sound boomy, but you'll not be using enough of that pair for the resulting recording to sound boomy. This is similar to how the X/Y pair in the center may not sound all that great on its own, but will work really well in combination with the ~2 foot spaced pair.
• If running omnis, I'd probably use cardioids instead of subcards in the ~2-foot near spaced pair position.  If not running omnis, I'd probably run subcards. This is based on the overall combined pattern of all mics in use together.
• If running the near-spaced pair in PAS instead of 90deg (+/-45deg), I'd spaced them more widely than 2 feet.. and would want to also run the wide-spaced omnis. Also based on the overall combined pattern of all mics in use together.