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Author Topic: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?  (Read 2320 times)

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Offline u2_fly_2

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How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« on: October 20, 2025, 07:20:44 AM »
I don´t know if I am totally wrong on this one but:

How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?

I mean when I listen back to some mastertapes from different tapers and different recordings, in many cases I can still hear a light distortion...having said that...in some cases there´s tapes that sound very clean and almost with no distortion.

Is it just me or does audio tapes/cassettes recorded with external mic´s really have this problem in general?

Maybe I am just very picky or maybe my ears are picking up something that are not really there?  :cheers:
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Offline datbrad

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2025, 10:25:07 AM »
That's a very broad question begging for context. Can you cite some examples on Archive.org? Source? Venue? Location? Open or stealth? Brand/model of microphones/tape recorder? Master from lead deck, or a recorder patched in down the line from the lead deck?
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Offline u2_fly_2

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2025, 10:59:33 AM »
That's a very broad question begging for context. Can you cite some examples on Archive.org? Source? Venue? Location? Open or stealth? Brand/model of microphones/tape recorder? Master from lead deck, or a recorder patched in down the line from the lead deck?


Thank you datbrad.
Yes, you have a good point in that the chain of the tape will most likely affect the listening experience. The microphones and the tape recorder as well.

Here´s a couple of examples:

1) This one sounds like a tape recorder with built-in mic´s?

https://archive.org/details/superchunk-sonic-chunk-middle-east-cambridge-ma-1990-08-14-pt.-1


2) This one is perhaps a very good audience or even SBD-tape?

https://archive.org/details/the-skids-hammersmith-odeon-england-1980-10-24


3) Some distortion in this one as well...not sure if one can detect if it´s built-in mic´s or external?

https://archive.org/details/sonic-youth-crawford-hall-irvine-ca-1990-11-03


If I am not incorrect... all of these examples suffers from light to quite heavy distortion...but also some hiss ofcourse.

I mean they are all very listenable tapes despite the distortion/hiss/age of tapes...I recorded alot worse tapes back in the late 80´s...so I know the feeling  :cheers:






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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2025, 11:03:37 AM »
Cassette tape can sound very good but does have limited dynamic range and is subject to some inherent distortions compared to digital.  Best management of those constraints requires careful setting of recording levels and gain-staging through the recording chain.  If not the tape itself, something else in the chain may be the source of distortion.  These days its easier than ever to get a clean recording free of noise and distortion using modern gear.  Its not that such quality was impossible previously, its just much easier to achieve now with less hassle.

Also, if PA amplified, might be and accurate capture of PA distortion.  Like datbrad says, could be a lot of things.  A good example might help us identify it better.

[This is post-preview, pre-post edit, as I just saw your reply above.  Will try to give a listen tonight if I have time]
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Offline datbrad

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2025, 01:20:21 PM »
Ok, since none of the sources you referred to provide any information about equipment used, or taping location within a venue, it's still not possible to fully answer your questions. However, after listening to a couple tracks of the three of the examples you posted, it's obvious those bands like a sound system that can be played LOUD more than anything else.

Unlike today where you can find high quality installed PA systems in clubs, in the '80s and '90s PAs were mostly rented. That meant unless specific equipment was required in a band's rider, the promoter/venue rented the cheapest PA they could find.

This means the audible distortion may have been what was heard by everyone at the show, not just the taper.
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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2025, 01:30:17 PM »
Best management of those constraints requires careful setting of recording levels and gain-staging through the recording chain.

^^^

I was in lots of sessions where the guitar tracks got slammed onto the 2" and the meter bridge was solid red. That tape distortion can be absolute magic.
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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2025, 01:42:23 PM »
That's a very broad question begging for context. Can you cite some examples on Archive.org? Source? Venue? Location? Open or stealth? Brand/model of microphones/tape recorder? Master from lead deck, or a recorder patched in down the line from the lead deck?
1) This one sounds like a tape recorder with built-in mic´s?
https://archive.org/details/superchunk-sonic-chunk-middle-east-cambridge-ma-1990-08-14-pt.-1

2) This one is perhaps a very good audience or even SBD-tape?
https://archive.org/details/the-skids-hammersmith-odeon-england-1980-10-24


3) Some distortion in this one as well...not sure if one can detect if it´s built-in mic´s or external?
https://archive.org/details/sonic-youth-crawford-hall-irvine-ca-1990-11-03
Sounds like those bands are playing really loudly.


#1 sounds like it was made from far away or maybe with a built in mic, perhaps both.


I'm not surprised whatsoever that Sonic Youth plays loud and tape has some overload.
I heard that when they opened for Neil Young it was painfully loud.

Offline meltycrayon

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2025, 04:27:22 PM »
I'm not surprised whatsoever that Sonic Youth plays loud and tape has some overload.
I heard that when they opened for Neil Young it was painfully loud.
Oh God yes. As soon as they started, tons of folks-- myself included-- ran for the bathrooms for TP to stuff in our ears.

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2025, 05:48:24 PM »
Fully with you on on good tape saturation, Shane!

Curious, how does track width of 4 tracks on typical stereo cassette compare with 24 across 2"? Obviously plenty of additional differences, namely speed, head and circuit design, general quality of all supporting gear.. but,  just wondering how they match up in regards to available magnetic area.
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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2025, 08:49:14 PM »
MY 2 cents brother U2:
1] I agree with other posters who speak of distortion coming from the PA itself, which certainly was a thing. I recall one Blues Traveler show multiple tapers walked out of saying that we all just brought thousands of dollars worth of gear to record PA distortion. This in the digital era of recorders.

2] The transfer can add distortion of varying degrees and types. Unless the playback cassette deck is in alignment and cleaned and in good head condition (magnetic, electronic, alignment), playback distortion both frequency and speed dependent can create distortions into the digitizing device.

I have yet to listen to your sources, but am listing what is on top of mind to your question. As you know, I was a cassette masters guy, getting them all played back properly is part of the a long term commitment.
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Offline Melanie

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2025, 11:18:42 PM »
Mostly, garbage in, garbage out. Bob
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Offline u2_fly_2

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2025, 04:07:29 AM »
MY 2 cents brother U2:
1] I agree with other posters who speak of distortion coming from the PA itself, which certainly was a thing. I recall one Blues Traveler show multiple tapers walked out of saying that we all just brought thousands of dollars worth of gear to record PA distortion. This in the digital era of recorders.

2] The transfer can add distortion of varying degrees and types. Unless the playback cassette deck is in alignment and cleaned and in good head condition (magnetic, electronic, alignment), playback distortion both frequency and speed dependent can create distortions into the digitizing device.

I have yet to listen to your sources, but am listing what is on top of mind to your question. As you know, I was a cassette masters guy, getting them all played back properly is part of the a long term commitment.


Thank you for the info rocksuitcase :-)
Yes, you are right...there are many things to consider when we speak about audio tape/cassette and distortion. I have learned a lot from you great folks here, thank you  :cheers:

As much as I really love live audio cassettes, they also confuse me sometimes with the lack of clarity or the mentioned distortion stuff.

Having asked all of this...in 2019 I got a very rare live tape from a Swedish band called "Adhesive"...they had a SBD-recording of one of their shows from 1995...they did not have a proper cassette deck to transfer the tape to "digital waves", so they made me a copy of that tape...I need to find it in the archives and try to make a proper digitalization  :headphones:
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Offline ero3030

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2025, 10:40:22 AM »
Quality and distortion? One or the other I would gather. Can't be both
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Offline DSatz

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2025, 11:32:58 AM »
I'm not sure whether you're talking about amateur recording of amplified events or about recording in general--but in either case there are plenty of different reasons and they all pile up. In my experience, clear live recordings with no sense of distortion are by far the exception rather than the rule.

First of all I'd have to say that there's a big market for certain kinds of distortion. Some of the comments in this thread give evidence of that. At least in some forms, distortion is part of what quite a few people seem to want to hear. I could even say that I'm part of that camp myself because there are some recordings that I think just sound really good, subjectively, even though I know that if I had been there in the hall when they were being recorded, that isn't at all what I would have heard; the recordings grab me more, are more involving, than the real sound would have been in the room at the time.

But going back to distortion as a defect: There are many venues in which the sound loses clarity as it gets louder, and performances where driving the room to and beyond that point is very much a part of the esthetic intention. Again, when you're in the room, the interaction between volume and distortion makes organic sense, while if you weren't there but you're hearing the effect accurately rendered on a recording, it doesn't necessarily make as much sense nor feel as good to hear--unless you can imagine what the experience in the space itself might have been like AND you happen to like that effect. Which evidently you don't like, and usually neither do I although sometimes, yeah, sure.

From a strictly technical viewpoint with recording equipment, it's very rare that sound alone (as opposed to wind or solid-borne vibrations a/k/a shock) will overload a modern condenser microphone or even push it into its non-linear region, except for some microphones of the past generation or so that have been designed (as a kind of "retro" thing) to produce audible, gradual distortion as a "tone thing" at levels that performers actually tend to reach, or some who pay the $$$$ to rent or buy actual "vintage" microphones (or lower-cost recreations of them) that didn't have such high overload levels to begin with. It's certainly possible to generate 120 dB SPL at close range by screaming, or by close-miking a very loud amp, and that's close to the limit for many older microphones that had output transformers and/or vacuum tube circuitry. The Beatles are probably the most famous example of people who took high-quality, professional microphones at Abbey Road Studios and elsewhere (Neumann, AKG) and deliberately pushed them past their design specifications to produce effects. The key thing, though, is that they listened to the results and kept pushing in the directions that produced interesting results, rather than just randomly abusing stuff and calling it art.

And as has been mentioned, all analog tape has gradually increasing distortion as you get higher in level (the effect is frequency-dependent as well). The esthetic that likes to push analog tape to the point where this becomes clearly audible as a kind of compression and distortion effect is very widely established in some genres of music, and some such people seem convinced that everyone else agrees with them, and that they're basically doing God's work. They often seem to get off on how much they're "breaking the rules"--they're rebels. The thing is, it's not easy to design electronics to drive the record heads of a tape recorder to extremely high level. Ironically the problem is to keep distortion from occurring in those electronics, to let them stand back and let the tape do all the distorting. But over the years as newer tape formulations came along that could take higher and higher levels, older decks and older circuit designs often found themselves out of headroom. Pushing the tape levels to extremes doesn't work equally well on all recorders by far. There are recordings in which the "tape squash" effect has backfired.

I was an engineer at a major classical record label during the years of transition to digital recording and CD production. The master tapes used for vinyl record production were copies of the approved, equalized and limited/compressed copies of the copies of the original session or event ("job") tapes had been cut together. That's what a "master tape" is -- not the original by far, but a copy of a copy of a copy at the very least. Analog tape copying, even with Dolby professional noise reduction and reasonable maximum levels on the tape, is not a distortion-free process and to be honest, those master tapes sounded pretty bad to my ears especially in terms of distortion. But they were good for what they were being used for, and they could be replaced, when they wore out as they inevitably did, by copying another copy off of the authorized copy. The thing was, they were totally unsuitable for CD mastering in which the end user hears (with only minor variations) just what was on those tapes. No wonder that when people used to compare early CDs with the LPs that were issued from the same masters, they thought the records sounded better. It wasn't so much the shortcomings of the CD process, but much more the shortcomings of LP production and playback that everyone had spent decades learning to work around or adapt to.

Microphones are a whole other layer of this. Inexpensive, consumer-oriented recording equipment used to have inputs designed for inexpensive, consumer-oriented dynamic (moving-coil) microphones. When people caught on that those microphones were the sound quality bottleneck and they started buying semi-pro or pro-quality microphones, the inputs of their recorders might be overloaded by the much higher sensitivity of the better microphones. Even as recently as the Sony PCM-F1 in the 1980s had this problem: a recorder that was miles beyond any cassette deck or even most studio open-reel decks, but unbalanced mike inputs with no phantom powering and an overload limit that nearly any professional condenser microphone could exceed fairly easily. The overload couldn't be prevented by turning down the record level controls, since it occurred in the very first stage of amplification/signal conditioning within the preamp, before any level controls had any effect on the circuit.

I hope that gives you some ideas to work with.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2025, 01:47:03 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline u2_fly_2

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Re: How come that some quality audio tapes still has distortion?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2025, 01:32:44 PM »
I'm not sure whether you're talking about amateur recording of amplified events or about recording in general--but in either case there are plenty of different reasons and they all pile up. In my experience, clear live recordings with no sense of distortion are by far the exception rather than the rule.

First of all I'd have to say that there's a big market for certain kinds of distortion. Some of the comments in this thread give evidence of that. At least in some forms, distortion is part of what quite a few people seem to want to hear. I could even say that I'm part of that camp myself because there are some recordings that I think just sound really good, subjectively, even though I know that if I had been there in the hall when they were being recorded, that isn't at all what I would have heard; the recordings grab me more, are more involving, than the real sound would have been in the room at the time.

But going back to distortion as a defect: There are many venues in which the sound loses clarity as it gets louder, and performances where driving the room to and beyond that point is very much a part of the esthetic intention. Again, when you're in the room, the interaction between volume and distortion makes organic sense, while if you weren't there but you're hearing the effect accurately rendered on a recording, it doesn't necessarily make as much sense nor feel as good to hear--unless you can imagine what the experience in the space itself might have been like AND you happen to like that effect. Which evidently you don't like, and usually neither do I although sometimes, yeah, sure.

From a strictly technical viewpoint with recording equipment, it's very rare that sound alone (as opposed to wind or solid-borne vibrations a/k/a shock) will overload a modern condenser microphone or even push it into its non-linear region, except for some microphones of the past generation or so that have been designed (as a kind of "retro" thing) to produce audible, gradual distortion as a "tone thing" at levels that performers actually tend to reach, or some who pay the $$$$ to rent or buy actual "vintage" microphones (or lower-cost recreations of them) that didn't have such high overload levels to begin with. It's certainly possible to generate 120 dB SPL at close range by screaming, or by close-miking a very loud amp, and that's close to the limit for many older microphones that had output transformers and/or vacuum tube circuitry. The Beatles are probably the most famous example of people who took high-quality, professional microphones at Abbey Road Studios and elsewhere (Neumann, AKG) and deliberately pushed them past their design specifications to produce effects. The key thing, though, is that they listened to the results and kept pushing in the directions that produced interesting results, rather than just randomly abusing stuff and calling it art.

And as has been mentioned, all analog tape has gradually increasing distortion as you get higher in level (the effect is frequency-dependent as well). The esthetic that likes to push analog tape to the point where this becomes clearly audible as a kind of compression and distortion effect is very widely established in some genres of music, and some such people seem convinced that everyone else agrees with them, and that they're basically doing God's work. They often seem to get off on how much they're "breaking the rules"--they're rebels. The thing is, it's not easy to design electronics to drive the record heads of a tape recorder to extremely high level. Ironically the problem is to keep distortion from occurring in those electronics, to let them stand back and let the tape do all the distorting. But over the years as newer tape formulations came along that could take higher and higher levels, older decks and older circuit designs often found themselves out of headroom. Pushing the tape levels to extremes doesn't work equally well on all recorders by far. There are recordings in which the "tape squash" effect has backfired.

I was an engineer at a major classical record label during the years of transition to digital recording and CD production. The master tapes used for vinyl record production were copies of the approved, equalized and limited/compressed copies of the copies of the original session or event ("work") tapes had been cut together. That's what a "master tape" is -- not the original by far, but a copy of a copy of a copy at the very least. Analog tape copying, even with Dolby professional noise reduction and reasonable maximum levels on the tape, is not a distortion-free process and to be honest, those master tapes sounded pretty bad to my ears especially in terms of distortion. But they were good for what they were being used for, and they could be replaced, when they wore out as they inevitably did, by copying another copy off of the authorized copy. The thing was, they were totally unsuitable for CD mastering in which the end user hears (with only minor variations) just what was on those tapes. No wonder that when people used to compare early CDs with the LPs that were issued from the same masters, they thought the records sounded better. It wasn't so much the shortcomings of the CD process, but much more the shortcomings of LP production and playback that everyone had spent decades learning to work around or adapt to.

Microphones are a whole other layer of this. Inexpensive, consumer-oriented recording equipment used to have inputs designed for inexpensive, consumer-oriented dynamic (moving-coil) microphones. When people caught on that those microphones were the sound quality bottleneck and they started buying semi-pro or pro-quality microphones, the inputs of their recorders might be overloaded by the much higher sensitivity of the better microphones. Even as recently as the Sony PCM-F1 in the 1980s had this problem: a recorder that was miles beyond any cassette deck or even most studio open-reel decks, but unbalanced mike inputs with no phantom powering and an overload limit that nearly any professional condenser microphone could exceed fairly easily. The overload couldn't be prevented by turning down the record level controls, since it occurred in the very first stage of amplification/signal conditioning within the preamp, before any level controls had any effect on the circuit.

I hope that gives you some ideas to work with.


Thank you very much DSatz. You explained it very well  :cheers:
Soundprofessionals Audio Technica AT 943 (SP-CMC-8) External Stereo Microphones > SP-SPSB-10-80020
Sound Professionals Micro-mini microphone power supply with mini 12vdc battery and 24 inch hardwired output cable Soundprofessionals Batterybox >> Olympus Ls-10 Linear Recorder > 4 GB > 24 Bit / 48 Khz  > 24 Bit / 96 Khz

Zoom Q3 HD - 1080p / 96-24 Bit

Roland R-26 (96 / 24 Bit)

Sony PCM-D100 (192 / 24 Bit)

 

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