Topic: Line Audio CM4 vs Schoeps / Neumann

[Pieteker]

Curious to get some opinions from other tapers who’ve done real-world comparisons.

I’ve been running Line Audio CM4s for a while now and have been super impressed with what they can do for the money. But I keep wondering how they actually stack up against the higher-end stuff like Schoeps (CMC6 + MK4/CMC1), Neumann KM140/184, or even DPA 4011s.

For audience recordings, do the pricier mics really earn their 5-10x price tags?
Or are CM4s basically giving you 80–90% of that Schoeps sound if your rig, pre, and placement are solid?

Would love to hear from anyone who’s done A/Bs or has experience swapping between CM4s and the big-name mics at shows.

[morst]

For audience recordings, do the pricier mics really earn their 5-10x price tags?

For folks who record 5-10x as much, the cost per show is the same


#NotWhatYouAsked

[aaronji]

even DPA 4011s.

Even those crappy 4011s, huh? And you forgot about some other good brands, including Gefell and Sennheiser...

The expectation that price and quality are linearly related is, generally, false, especially as you get to higher tiers of price/quality. Is a Lamborghini five times faster than a Porsche? Of course not, and there are also aesthetic (i.e., some people will prefer the looks of the not as flashy Porsche) and other considerations (if, for example, you are afraid to take your expensive mics into a crowded, humid concert environment). The bottom line is: Use what sounds best to you (at what you consider to be an affordable price). And sound is pretty subjective.

I have seen this syndrome before, though, many times. This is the billionth post on "are expensive mics worth it". The OPs of those threads invariably get pricier mics, it is just a question of how long it takes and how much more expensive. Just buy the Schoeps (or other high quality mics) and be done with it (at least for a while). Buy once, cry once and all.

[beroti_music]

^ This.

Schoeps has always been my dream mic. I keep the AT853s around for ultra-stealth situations, and I hold onto my Nakamichis partly because I love the brand and partly because there’s some nostalgia there (they were the mics that got me started).

But honestly, 99% of the time I’m running the Schoeps. Why? Because for me, they deliver the best overall sound: full frequency response with great lows, detailed mids and smooth highs. And, important for me as well: they’re also incredibly easy to work with in post. There’s rarely much cleanup or correction needed. That’s one of the things I love most about Schoeps, they just sound right without a lot of effort.

I plan to keep recording shows for the rest of my life, or at least for as long as I’m physically able to do so. When you look at it that way, the cost of the Schoeps ends up being negligible on a per-show basis. Buy once, cry once really does apply here. It’s also great not having that constant question of whether I should upgrade hanging over me.

[Thelonious]

My two cents.

I have to agree with the answers above.

I think of price as being an exponential kind of thing generally with a strong increase in performance up to a point, and diminishing returns after that making it more about personal preference once you get to a "pro" level in whatever your considering. I find this particularly true with instruments, with a very cheap guitar being difficult to play and potentially not sounding very good at all. However, once you get to an instrument that stays in tune, is easy to play, and sounds fairly "open", it's really a matter of personal preference. These days, the cost at which that happens is a lot lower for a lot of things than it was in the past due to advances in technology. I think that this applies to mics as well, with the line audio being close to that tangent in the curve, after which it really is more about personal preference.

I have been using CM4s, and some Schoeps mics, for a while now and have a few recordings of bands in similar contexts recorded with each. The one I can share is below. This the same band, in the same venue with the same sound person, at two different shows with mics in very similar locations. The band has a residency at this bar.

This show was recorded with Schoeps CMC6/mk22s, modified ORTF (to account for the open cardioid pattern) from approximately the location of the cover photo, 6' in the air.

https://samply.app/p/dTtSOONy1QpehS1RZHON?si=MwM4exTQgoUbSFONGIz3QqxORdl2

This show was recorded a few months later with CM4s, similar location and height, modified NOS (to account for the open cardioid pattern).

https://samply.app/p/LuhenUtNJZwHGr4lieuS?si=MwM4exTQgoUbSFONGIz3QqxORdl2

While not an exact comp from the same show, I have done this in other situations and I do think that the difference in sound here is indicative of the difference I hear between these mics. In general, I think the Schoeps have a bit more refinement straight out of the box, particularly in the highs, with no added EQ. I suspect you could EQ much of that difference out.

If value for dollar is your primary consideration then the answer is easy. I do really appreciate that whenever I use my mk22s I feel like I will get a great recording that I don't feel the need to EQ at all and that the high end seems to play nice with my playback system. Your playback system, or recording situation, could be different and you could easily prefer the CM4s depending on application.

In summary, I don't think price is really strongly correlated to quality AFTER you get into something of decent quality, and the CM4 is a quality mic. Then it becomes more about what works best for you in your application. The CM4s are really good mics, at a really good price.

[Pieteker]

Very grateful for the helpful responses and insights.

[robgronotte]

How much do the CM4 sets go for?

[goodcooker]

I've owned and used Schoeps, Neumann and some other big ticket top tier brand mics.

I think the exponentially higher price of those mics doesn't justify the cost difference for a lot of the scenarios that tapers use them for. If you are putting them in a hat and taping a live concert then IMO using mics like the Line Audios is completely adequate.

It's like a lot of things - I wouldn't mind having a $15,000 mandolin but for the jobs I'm utilizing it for my $300 one off hand built spruce top is just fine. If I end up in a situation where I have a bunch of disposable income I may buy another pair of high end mics but I doubt it. If I do, it's easier to justify since all my mics do double duty in a studio recording environment as well as taping shows.

I ran my Line Audio CM3 and my MBHO KA500 next to each other last summer. Buying new the price difference is $1500. The sound difference - not much other than one is hyper and one is wide card.

[Pieteker]

How much do the CM4 sets go for?

Around €120 each, so €240 for the pair.

Source: https://www.jam.se/sv/produkter/studio-och-inspelning/mickar/kondensator/line-audio-cm4.html

[grawk]

Before I sold my CM4s, I posted a comparison with the 4015s in the same (good) spot in a local theater.  The CM4s sound great, but there is a significant improvement on the DPA recording, IMHO.  I posted it to the line audio thread.

[Niels]

I don assume Line Audio make their own capsules.
Is it public knowledge what they use?

[grawk]

I don't know what capsules he uses, but my understanding is he modifies the one he uses heavily.  the folks at NoHype audio can answer questions about it.

Here's the comparison I did:

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=206772.0

[Billy Mumphrey]

As a Line Audio aficionado (2 sets of CM4's and a pair of CM3's) I agree with pretty much everything said above.

In grawk's comp, the CM4's sound great, and the DPA's kinda just kick up another notch in detail and fidelity.

Is that notch worth the extra money? The key word(s) are disposable income haha. If you have the money, and you really like the sound of a certain set of high-end mics, I say go for it. But if not, stick with what you got and work on improving or trying new technique's. A lot of people say the sonic difference doesn't quite match the price difference, and that's a pretty justified statement.

As mentioned above, consider the application. CM4's work just fine for most of the stuff we do.

For me personally, the only thing I really want to spend serious money on is the MK41 capsule. It's the smoothest hyper on the market IMO, and I have many taping scenarios where I have to set up in the most crowded spot of the venue. I also miss having a true cardioid, as the CM4's are a little less directional. A lot of us get bored with the "standard" cardioid, but (IMO) it's really the best all-around option for the majority of taping scenarios.

The biggest knock on Line Audio is the fixed capsule; it's pretty cool to be able to bring hyper, card, wide-card, and omni capsules to a new venue and customize the sound.

[grawk]

they used to have  pattern selectable large diaphragm mics but discontinued them because most of the demand was for the omni and card pencil mics.

[aaronji]

I don assume Line Audio make their own capsules.
Is it public knowledge what they use?

I recall reading somewhere that they use Primo caps. I don't remember where I saw that, though. Probably here.