Topic: Side mic from two Core Sound Cardioid Stealthy mics?

[TheJez]

Your biggest challenge is going to be how to mount the mics so that the side mics are oriented exactly 180 degrees from each other as close as possible and that the mid mic is 90 degrees perpendicular to it.

This is one of those scenarios (unlike other stereo arrangements that are a little more forgiving of a few degrees of inconsistency) where if the mics move AT ALL it will drastically change the sound of the results.

The other challenge you face is not having enough clock synced channels. Using two recorders from different brands and decades is probably not going to work out very well but, hey, stranger things have happened.

Give it a shot. Experimentation is fun. Like many, I learn by doing.

Yes, that's my primary goal. "Just for fun & experimenting" was my first sentence in this thread :-). Usually I tape stealth, using a similar setup as robgronotte: Rather close to the PA (so any unwanted audience noise is relatively quiet compared to the music), one mic pointing to PA, the other more towards the band, getting a different sound on each channel to create some 'spaciousness'. Pointing out the sensitivity for mic movement is much appreciated. M/S seems indeed less suitable for body-worn setups. I will try to wire the two cardioid mics into one channel so I can record M and S on one recorder, preventing sync issues.

Thanks all for your feedback, this is much appreciated! I'm looking forward to getting my soldering iron out and do some experimenting 

[robgronotte]

At a typical rock show the sound coming out of the PA's left and right is usually about the same.

Almost all of the shows I go to are mixed in stereo.

In my mind, one of the conveniences of MS is that it is an easy low-profile set-up.

What kinds of bands / venues do you generally go to?  I've almost never noticed any shows I attend having stereo mixed PAs, and it sounds like a terrible idea for any show where some of the audience will be far out to one side so they wouldn't be hearing all of the music.

[aaronji]

Mostly smaller venues where basically everyone is reasonably close. Jazz, rock, some stuff like The Wood Brothers or Charlie Parr (Americana, I suppose?). I think ~ 99% are in stereo. Many of the venues have really nice systems and arrays, as they are incorporated as foundations and receive some measure of public support. I went to a famous venue in Brussels and they had an enormous Switchcraft board. I am chatting with the FOH and he proudly tells me he could individually mic an orchestra into that monster. I asked him how often he gets orchestras in there and he admits he's never used more than 15 or so channels. I arched an eyebrow and he said they had funds to spend before the end of the fiscal year. "Hey! We're ready for anything now!"

[robgronotte]

Mostly smaller venues where basically everyone is reasonably close. Jazz, rock, some stuff like The Wood Brothers or Charlie Parr (Americana, I suppose?). I think ~ 99% are in stereo. Many of the venues have really nice systems and arrays, as they are incorporated as foundations and receive some measure of public support. I went to a famous venue in Brussels and they had an enormous Switchcraft board. I am chatting with the FOH and he proudly tells me he could individually mic an orchestra into that monster. I asked him how often he gets orchestras in there and he admits he's never used more than 15 or so channels. I arched an eyebrow and he said they had funds to spend before the end of the fiscal year. "Hey! We're ready for anything now!"

I go to mostly small venues myself as well, but still there are always some people close to the wall on one side, and if the shows were mixed in stereo, those people would be hearing maybe 80% of one channel and it would sound bad.  I'm pretty sure I would notice, because once (long ago) I was in the front right up against the PA on one side, and I immediately realized that I could hear the guitarist on my side very loud and could barely hear the other guitarist at all.  It sounded awful, and I reluctantly moved somewhat back and closer to the middle.

But this was the venue I went to the most often, and I almost always was very close to one PA, and I had never noticed that happening before. It wasn't even like that for the two opening acts at that show, so I figured either it was a mistake or it was a special request by the band.

In the last few years I've gone to over 200 shows per year, and I believe only one of those times did I notice that I might not be hearing everything through the PA closer to me. And even that was not nearly as significant as the show I described above.

Maybe venues / sound engineers do things very differently in Europe than they do in the US?

[aaronji]

I think so. FOH guys here are startled to learn that many shows in the US aren't stereo. Like I said, a lot of these places get some extra funding, so they have nice arrays and whatnot.

[grawk]

In most rooms a stereo mix doesn’t give most attendees a good experience. The music in the room will still be in stereo, it’s just from ambience and stage volume combining with the pa.

[morst]

Yeah, it might be interesting to try, but if you really are wanting to recreate the ambiance of the room, wouldn't it be easier just to use two binaural mics?

I agree that mono recordings generally sound a bit dull, and I like there to be some significant difference in the two channels.
I'm a fan of the sound of the Core Sound cardioids and have used them for years. But I don't generally point them both straight forward. I'm typically pretty close to the front of the room, not dead center, but a bit to one side or the other, roughly equidistant of between the band and the PA on that side. Then I try to point one mic at the band and the other at the PA.
That way I get a somewhat different mix in each channel, with the main difference being that more vocals are in the channel with the mic pointing at the PA.  Sometimes there is a significant volume difference between the two channels, but that's really easy to balance in any music editing software.

I know my method isn't common, as I've never heard of anyone else doing this, but my recordings generally turn out great (to my ears anyway), and I've received lots of compliments on my recordings over the years.

If you're interested in hearing any of them, there are a few on archive.org, some on TTD, and lots on DIME. All made with CSC or other small cardioid mics. If you need help to find any, just send me a message.

I tried it once in 1997 when the tapers section in the back of the room was both full and filled with unfriendly/unhelpful tapers. Hilariously (to me) not one of those other audience tapes has been posted on archive, although Dr Mike Frasca posted his patch of the board feed in 2017.
https://archive.org/details/moe1997-03-15-flac16
My recording could probably benefit from a remix, using my impending improved "reversible mix" technique where i plan to roll phase 90 degrees on the "side" channel to avoid bass buildup on one side and cancellation on the other (depending on the level of correlation)
See the current thread here with notes to other discussions https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=208572


A few of the signals coming from a typical stage are in stereo, such as guitar with Ping-Pong delay, keyboards, and overhead mics. Even drums can be pan-potted into a stereo mix - it doesn't have to be the full width of the pan-pot either, it can be spread across the relative center zone of the panner.
If the bulk of the mix is in mono, but a few things are in stereo, it can give a good effect without depriving off-center audience members of the ability to hear parts of the music.

[heathen]

Huh, seems like a lot of complication to make for a worse recording, at least for what I want in a live recording. I try to get the annoying crowd on the sides of me completely out of my recordings.

You've got a lot to learn.

[Craig T]

The hardware modifications are complicated, so why not just record x/y @ 90* with the cards you have, decode from stereo to raw mid-side, then back to stereo with the desired m/s ratio.  I believe there are dsp plug-ins that will allow you to process stereo> m/s> stereo in one step.

[morst]

The hardware modifications are complicated, so why not just record x/y @ 90* with the cards you have, decode from stereo to raw mid-side, then back to stereo with the desired m/s ratio.  I believe there are dsp plug-ins that will allow you to process stereo> m/s> stereo in one step.

Unless the mics have very even off-axis response, X/Y and M/S are not likely to be directly convertible.

[robgronotte]

Huh, seems like a lot of complication to make for a worse recording, at least for what I want in a live recording. I try to get the annoying crowd on the sides of me completely out of my recordings.

You've got a lot to learn.

It's been working for me for 30 years, no need to learn something far more difficult and complicated when I get better results than almost anyone who uses much more expensive equipment.

[grawk]

The hardware modifications are complicated, so why not just record x/y @ 90* with the cards you have, decode from stereo to raw mid-side, then back to stereo with the desired m/s ratio.  I believe there are dsp plug-ins that will allow you to process stereo> m/s> stereo in one step.

Unless the mics have very even off-axis response, X/Y and M/S are not likely to be directly convertible.

This.

[heathen]

It's been working for me for 30 years, no need to learn something far more difficult and complicated when I get better results than almost anyone who uses much more expensive equipment.

With that kind of talent what are you doing wasting your time on here?  Surely your skills must be in high demand.

[morst]

With that kind of talent what are you doing wasting your time on here?  Surely your skills must be in high demand.

or at least your ego

[robgronotte]

It's been working for me for 30 years, no need to learn something far more difficult and complicated when I get better results than almost anyone who uses much more expensive equipment.

With that kind of talent what are you doing wasting your time on here?  Surely your skills must be in high demand.

Obviously I'm here to help the OP, who seems like a good guy, unlike some people around here.