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Offline HighStandDave

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A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« on: December 01, 2025, 11:50:08 AM »
...what exactly is DINa? Is it in fact 17 cm/90°? I see it namedropped everywhere but no one ever mentions its measurements.

Thank you.
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Offline al w.

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2025, 12:57:51 PM »
Yep!

DIN = 90°, 20cm
DINa = 90%, 17cm

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Offline noahbickart

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2025, 09:08:58 AM »
and with hypercardioids.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2025, 01:06:01 PM »
^ The reasoning is DIN is primarily intended for cardioids, while the slightly narrower spacing of DINa better accommodates super/hypercardioids in place of the cardioids.  Of course you can make a recording using whichever pattern in whatever configuration, and can mix things up to your advantage and preference, it's just that the commonly named configurations generally assume the use of a particular pickup pattern. 

Here's some of the "commonly named" 90° stereo configurations, arranged in terms of the physical spacing between microphones, from narrowest to widest:

config:angle/spacing:pattern:  SRA:
X/Y90°/0cmsuper/hyper  136°
DINa90°/17cmsuper/hyper89°
DIN90°/17cmcardioid102°
EBS90°/25cmcardioid90°
NOS90°/30cmcardioid81°

^ Note that the Stereo Recording Angle of DINa using super/hypercardioids is actually closest to EBS using cardioids (EBS = 90° /25cm), and not DIN.  The data makes more sense in terms of the achieved results if arranged by Stereo Recording Angle rather than by the physical spacing between the microphones.  Here is the same table, except this time arranged in terms of the resulting SRA, from widest to narrowest:

config:angle/spacing:pattern:  SRA:
X/Y90°/0cmsuper/hyper  136°
DIN90°/17cmcardioid102°
EBS90°/25cmcardioid90°
DINa90°/17cmsuper/hyper89°
NOS90°/30cmcardioid81°
« Last Edit: December 23, 2025, 01:08:13 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2025, 12:56:43 PM »
There never was a DIN standard for microphone setups, though apparently at one time, someone said they were maybe going to propose one. That's all the "authority" that exists for this moniker.
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Offline HighStandDave

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2025, 04:15:43 PM »
So XY is meant for hyper/super, not cards? I never knew that.
Mics: sE Electronics sE8 (card/omni) x2, Sennheiser MKE 600 x2, Rode M5 x2, CA 14 Omni w/ UBB
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Offline aaronji

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2025, 04:36:19 PM »
^ You can also do XY with cardioids. I would say the "standard" definition of XY is matching cards at 90°, but other options are also possible...
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Offline grawk

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2025, 07:42:34 PM »
So XY is meant for hyper/super, not cards? I never knew that.

Xy works for any directional mic pair, the effective angle changes based on pattern.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2025, 10:08:28 AM »
^^^^ this. "X/Y" refers only to the coincident placement of two directional microphones; it doesn't specify which directional pattern or what angle is between their main axes. Of course in practice, some patterns and angles make much more sense than others. Coincident wide cardioids angled 10º apart won't get you much of a stereo image no matter where they're placed!

For the center of a stereo image to be in proportion to its sides, one basic principle is to angle the microphones apart so that their pickup patterns overlap right where each one has 1/2 its on-axis sensitivity. Then you'd aim the pair of mikes toward the center of the sound source(s) symmetrically, i.e. with the point of overlap in their patterns--their mutual axis as a stereo pair--facing exactly forward. If you work that out geometrically, however, using the 1 + cos(θ) formula, it turns out that cardioid is the least directive pattern that can achieve that at all. And to get a pair of cardioid patterns to overlap at their half-power points, you'd need to set the two mikes up back-to-back (180º), which is problematic in other ways (especially if the microphones have narrower patterns at high frequencies).

90º between a pair of cardioids is very weak sauce, however, unless you're recording an event where your mikes are surrounded, or nearly so, by what you're trying to record. And in fact I think that's where the old 90º "cookbook recipe" for cardioids comes from: The large majority of "one-point stereo microphones" are sold for recording business meetings, not musical or stage performances, by someone who's at the meeting and who places the mike in the middle of the group or at their own desk or whatever.

When you want to record a musical or other stage performance, the microphone is usually at some distance from all the sound sources, and the goal is to discriminate left vs. right among a relatively narrow angle of sound sources as "seen" from that distance. To some extent you're recording the entire space that the events occur in--but only a limited range of angles is "in front". That range of angles needs special attention in recording because of the way two-channel stereo generally gets played back in people's homes.

From a 1970s perspective, when consumer recording equipment started to be mass-produced in Japan and sold in the U.S. and western Europe, if you went to your local Radio Shack or your local Sony or Panasonic dealer, most of what you'd see among mass-produced merchandise was designed for the "business meeting"-type application, including stereo microphones with two cardioids angled at 90º. (Recorders with built-in microphones are still made and sold with this configuration.) But that application has different miking requirements from what we here mostly do (also w/r/t flat low frequency response, which is undesirable for speech pickup; also peaked or otherwise elevated response in the upper midrange and higher, which can be quite useful for speech intelligibility but is tiresome for music recording). The icing on the cake, back then when most people had never used microphones or recorders before, was that the brighter something sounded, the more "high fidelity" most people thought it was--so (especially) the Japanese manufacturers competed on that basis for a long while.

The "first-order" directional patterns can be arranged in a spectrum from omni to bidirectional (figure-8), based on their physical principle of operation. On that spectrum cardioid is right in the middle--it's what you'd get if you mixed the output from a perfect omni with a perfect figure-8 50/50 if both mikes had exactly identical sensitivity. Many switchable-pattern microphones have exactly that selection of three patterns (e.g. Neumann U 67 and U 87), and in some types historically there has been an omni capsule and a figure-8 capsule, with the cardioid pattern synthesized by combining the two capsules' outputs (e.g. Schoeps M 201).

You can chop that pattern spectrum up further, too: "wide cardioid" would fall somewhere between omni and cardioid (there's no specific technical formula); supercardioid would fall between cardioid and figure-8 but in that case there is a specific trigonometric formula (see chart below), and hypercardioid would fall between supercardioid and figure-8 (again, there's a specific trigonometric definition for it). Accordingly, some multi-pattern microphones (e.g. Neumann TLM 170 and U 89) offer five selectable patterns: omni, "wide cardioid", cardioid, super- or hypercardioid (most often something between the two), and figure-8. Others go further and offer nine gradations, or even a fully continuous range of patterns. It's all just different mixtures, although the classic Neumann approach (developed by Braunmühl and Weber ca. 1935) uses two back-to-back cardioids rather than an omni and a figure-8; with a little math it can be shown that the outcome is the same.

There's a professor named Michael Williams, a very dear fellow who has done all the math and tested it all in practice, who has published charts and graphs showing what you get with all sorts of patterns and angles and (violating the X/Y norm, but quite useful for sonic reasons) distances between microphones. Helmut Wittek, who these days is the co-CEO of Schoeps microphones, also has a Web site with a nifty calculator for such things, on https://hauptmikrofon.de/stereo-surround/image-assistant .

--best regards

P.S. added later: Despite all the math, these formulas aren't the sole determinants of all outcomes. For one thing, microphones don't generally have identical directional patterns across the entire audio frequency spectrum (a phenomenon that's not random; it's a whole other discussion, though). The listening/playback setup is an enormous factor as well. Headphones vs. loudspeakers are obviously different realms. The angles between a listener and a pair of loudspeakers make a huge difference, too.

« Last Edit: Today at 08:29:57 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline meltycrayon

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2025, 10:30:23 AM »
See, HighStandDave, when you're talking microphones, there's no "very simple question."  :laugh:

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 06:24:13 PM »
So XY is meant for hyper/super, not cards? I never knew that.

Continuing on what the others have said..  You can use any pickup pattern and any angle you like, and the configuration remains "X/Y" as long as the diaphragms of both microphone are positioned coincidently (typically vertically aligned with as little spacing as possible between them). It's just that when using X/Y to record in a typical concert taping situation - say from the soundboard or anywhere out in the audience, super/hypercardioids tend to be an appropriate choice for a few reasons. Whereas in more typical recording situations such as "business meetings" or the recording of a musician or group of musicians from a relatively close position, the defacto X/Y standard of cardioids angled 90-degrees is common and generally appropriate.

DSatz nicely describes underlying situation here:
Quote
When you want to record a musical or other stage performance, the microphone is usually at some distance from all the sound sources, and the goal is to discriminate left vs. right among a relatively narrow angle of sound sources as "seen" from that distance. To some extent you're recording the entire space that the events occur in--but only a limited range of angles is "in front". That range of angles needs special attention in recording because of the way two-channel stereo generally gets played back in people's homes.

Why does it make sense to consider super/hypercardioids over other patterns when using X/Y for concert taping?  One reason is that the resulting stereo recording angle from using supercards is narrower than with cardioids.  90° X/Y with cardioids produces a Stereo Recording Angle that's more than 180° wide.  That might work well if the mics are placed center stage, but probably isn't a good match when recording from significantly farther away. 90° X/Y supercardioids produces a Stereo Recording Angle around 135° wide, which is probably a better fit, if still overly wide.  Increase the X/Y angle from 90° to 120° and the Stereo Recording Angle narrows to 160° for cardioids and to about 105° for supercardioids, which is a lot more reasonable in terms of comfortably fitting the front sound sources of interest inside the Stereo Recording Angle.

Another reason is that even though we're arranging things to produce a Stereo Recording Angle which is appropriate for the primary sources of interest in front, in actuality sound is arriving from all directions.  In a concert taping situation, how the sound that arrives from outside the Stereo Recording Angle is handled is arguably more important than getting the the Stereo Recording Angle optimized.  Ideally we'd like both.

The "Blumlein stereo microphone configuration" is pretty well known and widely considered to produce both great imaging and good portrayal of ambient reverberant sound.  Blumlein is an X/Y configuration -  90° X/Y using figure-8 (bidirectional) microphones.  It produces the narrowest Stereo Recording Angle of any "first order" directional pattern at around 75°.   That's even better suited to concert taping from most positions in the audience or from the soundboard.  The problem is the second part about sound arriving from all directions.  Blumlein is equally sensitive to the pickup of sound arriving from all horizontal directions.  The ambient/reverberant sound on recordings produced with it tends to be very natural, but there is no "forward-sensitivity-bias" that favors sound arriving from the front.  If the microphone pair can be placed close enough to the front so that the sounds of interest dominate sufficiently over the reverberant sound, yet also far enough away that the primary sounds of interest all comfortably fit within that 75° angle, great!  But unfortunately that's rarely the case.

Using supercardioids produces a more optimal combination of a sufficiently narrow SRA, along with an overall sensitivity pattern that is sufficiently forward biased, which tends to work better that other directional patterns in X/Y for most concert taping situations.

Note- The SRA angles quoted above are extrapolated from the work of Michal William's which DSatz mentions.  I pulled them from an alternate on-line calculator made available by the late Eberhard Sengpiel -https://sengpielaudio.com/HejiaE.htm. I mention this because I feel that particular on-line tool is significantly easier for most folks to use and interpret.  It's very easy to input the microphone directivity pattern, angle and spacing between the two microphones and then see the stereo recording angle and other info displayed both visually and in numeric quantities.  Both of these stereo microphone visualization tools are incredibly useful.  The Sengpiel visualizer is simper but easier, whereas the Hauptmikrofon visualizer is more fully featured but somewhat harder to navigate and interpret. 

[edit] Second note-  Although there is no official German DIN stereo microphone configuration standard, "DIN" and "DINa" are generally recognized defacto names for particular stereo pair configurations commonly used in the world of amateur concert taping.  When a concert taper mentions "DIN" or "DINa", other tapers recognize that as "Microphone pair angled 90° and spaced 20cm, or 17cm". 
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:37:03 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: A very simple question that I cannot find an answer to...
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 06:47:31 PM »
..also, this is particularly informative with regard to the sound of various coincident-pair microphone configurations when used in concert-taping like reverberant environments - https://hauptmikrofon.de/stereo-surround/ambience-recording/conincident-microphones-comparison-diffuse-field

That's a further dive into how the diffuse reverberant sound arriving from all directions is handled differently by different X/Y configurations.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

 

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