Topic: $1000 Budget, thinking about starting with a zoom h4 essential & mics

[grzy7316]

So given a budget of 1K , I am looking to get all the equipment I would need for recording at festivals
To my understanding, I would need the zoom h4 essential , a pair  of XLR mics , some cables and a stand.

Why I am thinking about the H4 essential
1. Its small enough with built in mics  to sneak into places where I cant openly tape
2. XLR inputs
3. 32-bit recording
4. Can be powered via usb-c  - I have 4 50,000 mah power banks I take camping & to festivals
5. Price leaves rooms for mics

The main questions I have at this point :
1. Am I better off shifting the budget around
    a. Get an H5 studio for better preamps & spend less on mics
    b. Spend more on mics ,  completely discard the idea of having built in mics as a backup and go for something that just has inputs (like the F3 )
    c. buy from a brand other than zoom ?
2. What the heck kind of mics should I buy ?
3. do I need any kind of additional box for the mics to put between them and the zoom device ?

[SMsound]

Zoom f3 for sure, not h4. Much cleaner preamps and dead simple to get good recordings. Skip the built in mics—they sound like…built in mics 2” apart instead of real mics placed correctly.

Lots of options for mics. Line audio cm4 new would be an easy choice. Buy them from nohypeaudio and pay for DHL so you don’t wait 2 months in customs. Movo wind protection as you are open taping. For a stand, I like the Matthew’s reverse stand if you don’t need it to fit in carryon, possibly with an extension if you need more than 7’ height. Matthew’s merf stand if you do need carryon size. Matthew’s has the best 48” extension, too. Bring a sandbag or something to help anchor it.

I have everything (schoeps, dpa, every stand, sound devices, whatever). This setup will stand up against anything you can buy for $10k.

Recommend super light cables as this kit is very lightweight and a heavy cable doesn’t make sense. Mogami Mini star quad is great eventually.

[grzy7316]

Zoom f3 for sure, not h4. Much cleaner preamps and dead simple to get good recordings. Skip the built in mics—they sound like…built in mics 2” apart instead of real mics placed correctly.

Lots of options for mics. Line audio cm4 new would be an easy choice. Buy them from nohypeaudio and pay for DHL so you don’t wait 2 months in customs. Movo wind protection as you are open taping. For a stand, I like the Matthew’s reverse stand if you don’t need it to fit in carryon, possibly with an extension if you need more than 7’ height. Matthew’s merf stand if you do need carryon size. Matthew’s has the best 48” extension, too. Bring a sandbag or something to help anchor it.

I have everything (schoeps, dpa, every stand, sound devices, whatever). This setup will stand up against anything you can buy for $10k.

Recommend super light cables as this kit is very lightweight and a heavy cable doesn’t make sense. Mogami Mini star quad is great eventually.

looking at the line audio cm4, they do seem like a great mic, but they also seem to be back ordered like crazy pretty much everywhere. It also seems like they offer the best bang to buck ratio as far as a mic goes, but I am hoping to get my setup put together by late may - early June at the latest, are there any other mics I should be looking at on the used market to try to get something sooner ?

I am thinking about a pair of AT4041s , since they seem to be widely available, and the used price isn't obscene

[cj.flac]

Seems like you are committed to open taping with a full size setup. I can't give personal recommendations for that, but I have a low profile rig that costed much less than $1000 for excellent results.

Innogear desktop stand $17
Bag of stand adapters $8
AT853c with 4.7k mod ~$170 in Yard Sale
AT8438 (x2) mic stand adapters $56
Flash bracket $10
Deity PR-2 $206
Tripod/mic stand ~$25-75
Gear ties $10?

So around ~$500 gets you a versatile low profile rig you can put on two stands, tall or short, or on yourself, with a hat and some gear ties.

Swap the Deity PR-2 with the Zoom F3 and Boya 35C-XLR adapter, and for about $150 more you get XLR + 32 bit stereo capability. Might be my next upgrade if I didn't already have a Tascam DR-40X I use for XLR things.

I would also say, depending on console, that you can get mixdowns written to a USB drive, so invest in a nice, high storage SSD for this purpose.

[Billy Mumphrey]

You absolutely cannot go wrong with a CM4 > F3 setup. You'll find a lot of people around here using and recommending the same setup, including me.

With that being said, we are in a bit of technological boom when it comes to consumer audio gear; it all sounds pretty darn good these days IMO. I've been taping with my Zoom H1essential A LOT lately, and I've been more than pleased (samples to come in the essential thread). I got it for $60 used on Marketplace, and just saw the aforementioned H4essential for $100, which I almost picked up. Don't hesitate to pick these up used if you can find them, including any pair of SD condensor's you see if they are cheap (excluding that Temu crap), and plug em in and start taping. Literally for under $300 you can make some solid recordings.

The Zoom F series is certainly quieter and better performing than their H series, BUT I find that it really isn't noticeable when recording louder music. Recording (quieter) classical music might reveal the difference, but even then it's not like an H series recording will be unlistenable. The difference is real but subtle IMO.

To answer some of your questions, it's generally agreed upon that mics are gonna be the most important element in the recording chain. Not a bad idea to spend more on those than the recorder.

The Tascam FR-AV2 sounded pretty good to me, it's similiar in function to the F3.

The only downside to the CM4's is they are a fixed capsule. They are more of a wide cardioid (less directional than cardioid) which I think sounds GREAT outdoors and still can produce great results indoors in good-sounding situations. If you don't want to mess with the international shipping etc, the entry level Rode and sE options are just fine for starting out. You see used pairs of those around $100-150 and at that price you can't go wrong. Cardioid mic pattern is the best ALL-PURPOSE pattern and a great place to start in my experience.

[jbell]

Line Audio CM4 > Tascam FR AV2

[mepaca]

Rode Nt4 stereo microphone can be run with phantom or 9v battery powered through included
xlr cable into Zoom f3 or battery powered through included 1/8 mini cable into many different recorders.
I like the discontinued Sony m10 or the current a10. All for less than $900. Dead simple, sounds great.
Sounds really good for recording from speaker stacks due to high SPL on microphone.

[al w.]

The only downside to the CM4's is they are a fixed capsule. They are more of a wide cardioid (less directional than cardioid) which I think sounds GREAT outdoors and still can produce great results indoors in good-sounding situations. If you don't want to mess with the international shipping etc, the entry level Rode and sE options are just fine for starting out. You see used pairs of those around $100-150 and at that price you can't go wrong. Cardioid mic pattern is the best ALL-PURPOSE pattern and a great place to start in my experience.

I agree with all of this. While you wait for a pair of CM4s to pop up, grab a used pair of Rodes or sEs from the Yard Sale or Reverb; you'll be able to sell them for more or less what you paid for them later.

To add a bit more color: from my experience there are roughly five price bands for new pairs (talking SDCs here, not LDCs):

• ~$100-250 (Rode M5, sE SE7, Samson C02)
• ~$400-600 (Line Audio CM4, Rode NT5, sE SE8, Studio Projects C4)
• ~$800-1100 (Austrian Audio, ADK 3 Sigma Chi, Warm Audio, Rycote SC series, Peluso CEMC-6, Oktava)
• ~$1500-2000 (Neumann 180 series, Telefunken M60, DPA 2000 series, Beyerdynamic MC-900 series)
• $3000+ (Schoeps, DPA 4000 series, Sennheiser MKH series)

Except for the highest price band, very roughly speaking you can expect a used pair to drop one price band lower, e.g., Studio Projects C4 are $400 new and ~$200 used, etc.

Also -- and this is very much personal opinion -- but I dabbled quite a lot in the $800-1100 range (again, new) and found it left something to be desired. I feel like you're better off sticking with the ~$500 and below pairs and then, when ready to upgrade, skipping the $800-1100 band and going straight to the big guns. That said, hundreds of amazing tapes have been made using mics in this range, so YMMV!

I do agree with the advice to stick with cards to begin with, but I also agree with Billy's point about the CM4 being a fixed capsule microphone. I were starting out again I would go for either a) a pair of cards that support interchangeable capsules so I can add other capsules in the future, or b) a set that includes cards, hypers, and omnis (like the Studio Projects C4). That way you can get a sense for what you prefer without having to pay extra for bodies you don't necessarily need yet. (FWIW, I cycled through lots of cards before realizing I have a strong preference for hypers)

On the subject of stands and such, you might find this post helpful: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=208885.msg2436364#msg2436364

Oh, and get the F3 best bang for your buck IMO.

[SMsound]

Billy's point about the CM4 being a fixed capsule microphone. I were starting out again I would go for either a) a pair of cards that support interchangeable capsules so I can add other capsules in the future, or b) a set that includes cards, hypers, and omnis (like the Studio Projects C4). That way you can get a sense for what you prefer without having to pay extra for bodies you don't necessarily need yet. (FWIW, I cycled through lots of cards before realizing I have a strong preference for hypers)

On the subject of stands and such, you might find this post helpful: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=208885.msg2436364#msg2436364

Oh, and get the F3 best bang for your buck IMO.

Respectfully disagree.

I have all of the capsules for my Schoeps CMC1. But, the poster has a $1000 budget. He could get a pair of tiny Line Audio CM4 plus a separate pair of Line Audio Omni1 and have wide cards + omnis, and also buy a zoom F3, and come in under budget.

In my experience, interchangeable capsules make sense when bodies are very expensive and/or big (schoeps CMC6). At Line Audio prices, there is no need to fiddle with screwing and unscrewing caps and the whole mics also take up little more room than a capsule anyways.

[SMsound]

Line Audio CM4 > Tascam FR AV2

FR AV2 is great, but it's significantly heavier and also more expensive than a Zoom F3.  Yes I can hear that the preamps on the FR-AV2 are 0.1% cleaner when I'm recording piano in a beautiful hall. But I can't hear the difference at a rock concert. Rather have something cheaper and lighter.

The other thing is that I let my less experienced friends use the F3 because it's stupid simple and hard to screw up recordings. Push a button so the red light goes on and you're running.

[al w.]

Billy's point about the CM4 being a fixed capsule microphone. I were starting out again I would go for either a) a pair of cards that support interchangeable capsules so I can add other capsules in the future, or b) a set that includes cards, hypers, and omnis (like the Studio Projects C4). That way you can get a sense for what you prefer without having to pay extra for bodies you don't necessarily need yet. (FWIW, I cycled through lots of cards before realizing I have a strong preference for hypers)

On the subject of stands and such, you might find this post helpful: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=208885.msg2436364#msg2436364

Oh, and get the F3 best bang for your buck IMO.

Respectfully disagree.

I have all of the capsules for my Schoeps CMC1. But, the poster has a $1000 budget. He could get a pair of tiny Line Audio CM4 plus a separate pair of Line Audio Omni1 and have wide cards + omnis, and also buy a zoom F3, and come in under budget.

In my experience, interchangeable capsules make sense when bodies are very expensive and/or big (schoeps CMC6). At Line Audio prices, there is no need to fiddle with screwing and unscrewing caps and the whole mics also take up little more room than a capsule anyways.

That's a reasonable point, especially if you're into cards. However, a key detail that might have been missed is that the CM4s aren't actually available for sale anywhere at least not for delivery within the OP's timeline. So with that in mind, if you're gonna get a cheap pair of SDCs while you wait for some CM4s to pop up, I figure why not get something that lets you explore a bit? Otherwise I would probably agree: just get the CM4s, especially if you don't think you'll wanna play with hypers. Now if Line Audio made a hyper, I would be a very happy man... 

Editing to change my mind: You know what, come to think of it -- since the OP's goal is to record outdoor festivals, maybe the best move would be to start with the Line Audio omnis while waiting for the CM4s. The omnis are more generally available, and they work great outdoors.

[SMsound]

[
Editing to change my mind: You know what, come to think of it -- since the OP's goal is to record outdoor festivals, maybe the best move would be to start with the Line Audio omnis while waiting for the CM4s. The omnis are more generally available, and they work great outdoors.

I agree —I have cm4 and omni1 and the omni1  sound great and have less issues with wind and stand noise.

Omni1 a into an f3 is about the easiest way in the world to get a good recording. It will sound a lot better than built in zoom mics—that’s for sure.

OP, the omni1s should be 12-24” apart as a general guideline (I guess that most of us prefer it on the wider side of that range). They should ideally both point at the stage though it doesn’t matter too much with omnis.

You can get away with a super super lightweight stereo bar as these mics weigh nothing. I used the big manfrotto for a while then realized it was massive overkill and made my own lightweight stereo bars out of aluminum. Particularly easy with omnis as your goal it to point them both the same direction at the stage (easier than fancy ORTF angles)

[heva]

Tascam DR40XP?

[aaronji]

So given a budget of 1K , I am looking to get all the equipment I would need for recording at festivals
To my understanding, I would need the zoom h4 essential , a pair  of XLR mics , some cables and a stand.

What sort of festivals? Are they outdoors, as has been assumed? How big? What kind(s) of music? What kind(s) of crowd? In my opinion, these factors impact what sort of gear you might want to buy and set up.

Also, have you ever "taped" a show before? A lot of people give it a whirl and decide it is not really for them. It can be very different from just going to the show. In other words, you may want to go kind of cheap to see how you like it or buy items with good re-sale value.

[rastasean]

Also, have you ever "taped" a show before? A lot of people give it a whirl and decide it is not really for them. It can be very different from just going to the show. In other words, you may want to go kind of cheap to see how you like it or buy items with good re-sale value.

yes, consider this advice. Something inexpensive like a Sony A10 on a lightstand will give you an idea of what it's like to tape a show and give reasonably good audio.
If you go alone to shows/festivals, you'll need to be concerned about your equipment not getting stolen or knocked down. You'll need to consider getting there reasonably early to setup and get a spot. You'll need to consider you may not like how the recording sounds on playback for various reasons - maybe the crowd was too chatty, maybe the music wasn't that good, maybe where you were bad bad sound.

But if you do want to spend ~$1000, check out the yard sale section and see what equipment is available. Don't think you have to buy everything new or all at once. I'd wager most folks buy things piecemeal.