Mic + Preamp recommendations for taping with a WM-D6C and type IV blanks

[Squirming Coil]

Hi,

I am probably one of the few people that still has a desire to tape concerts with a Walkman. I understand the drawbacks and the expected sound quality. I'd just personally prefer taping an analog AUD master instead of a digital AUD master. I would ideally want a mic  and pre-amp combo that pushes the D6C as high as it can go. No price constraints. If anyone has ever taped with type IV cassettes on a D6C, if you have any recommendations on blanks to get or avoid, I would love to know. Thank you.

[jefflester]

Pretty sure Type IV tapes (or even Type II) haven't been manufactured for 20 years or more so you're stuck looking for NOS as they get more and more unobtainable though perhaps you already know that.

[rocksuitcase]

Beyer M160's and a Beyer pre-amp (model number escapes me-found it: MV 100)
https://reverb.com/item/10851043-beyerdynamic-mv100-mic-preamp

[grawk]

any great preamp of your choice
best microphones you can justify

the weakest link will be the 1/8" input.

[Gutbucket]

^ weak link mechanically, if not necessarily sonically, as long as its kept clean and the mating plug securely seated without a locking mechanism.   Gaffer tape secures it better than nothing.

Make sure to check bias, align the heads properly, and all the rest to make the most of that now very expensive type IV metal tape!  It was never inexpensive. But the fancy type IV metal and ceramic cassette shells were precious works of art compared to the more standard plastic shells.  I used it a bit, but mostly stuck with type II.  Run test sweeps, do the tests, verify your getting your money's worth out of that fancy tape.

Perfect your tape flip gymnastics and consider running a small digital recorder in parallel as backup to patch flips, dropouts, overloads, and whatever else conspires against your anachronistic mechanical recording fun.

[HarW182 (clover182 old handle)]

I would love to tape a show using a Sony WM-D6(c) as well, but the cost is pretty insane, then there is everything else (maintenance, tapes) but they make/made great tapes. I wonder how a recording done with the old Sony ECM-XXX (717/909/929/939 etc) mics would sound, I have some great recordings in my collection from the 1980s done using those with the D6 which sound really good. Something like the AT9400 would sound good too. There is of course the classic Sonic Studios DSM-6 mics which make solid recordings. 

I have a Metallica recording from 2012 done with a D6c and Core Sound Binaurals which sounds very good

[daspyknows]

I get the desire to go old school but when a 64gb card costs the same price for a cassette give or take  and ai can record 20 to 30 shows the cassette must sound sigficantly better and I can't conclude that.  To each his own and for nostalgia I get it once in awhile but if you are taping a lot of shows it doesn't make sense to me.

[Squirming Coil]

I get the desire to go old school but when a 64gb card costs the same price for a cassette give or take  and ai can record 20 to 30 shows the cassette must sound sigficantly better and I can't conclude that.  To each his own and for nostalgia I get it once in awhile but if you are taping a lot of shows it doesn't make sense to me.

I understand that. I have "taped" with my iPhone before and the results were bad. The first time, I used a field recorder app without level adjustments. Clipping was everywhere. The next time, I used a recorder app with level adjustments. Clipping resulted even after turning the volume to the minimum possible without muting. The app also stopped recording mid show and I had to reset the settings. I also know that bands like Phish already record and release DSBD recordings that are much better than any DAUD recording I would make. Sure, getting a DAT Walkman would eliminate that problem and I would consider taping both analog and digital in the future to patch in what is lost from tape flips, but first I want to prioritize analog because few people, if any, do it anymore and I started collecting cassettes over a decade ago. I have done it with an ECM-MS907 without a pre amp and TDK MA110 tapes, but my ECM-MS907 got water damaged and I was looking for better options since I am in need of new recording equipment. I only used the ECM-MS907 because it came with my D6C. The results were good, but I can imagine the results being even better with a pre-amp and a better mic. Sure, not higher quality than digital, but if I can't achieve better than a DSBD anyway, I can at least achieve good analog results. I have listened to great analog bootlegs. I have also listened to horrible analog bootlegs.

[Squirming Coil]

I would love to tape a show using a Sony WM-D6(c) as well, but the cost is pretty insane, then there is everything else (maintenance, tapes) but they make/made great tapes. I wonder how a recording done with the old Sony ECM-XXX (717/909/929/939 etc) mics would sound, I have some great recordings in my collection from the 1980s done using those with the D6 which sound really good. Something like the AT9400 would sound good too. There is of course the classic Sonic Studios DSM-6 mics which make solid recordings.

I have a Metallica recording from 2012 done with a D6c and Core Sound Binaurals which sounds very good

I have many Pearl Jam bootlegs taped from SS DSM6. I was looking at the pair that was on eBay, but they sold. My thinking though is that many mics have been manufactured long after most people stopped using the D6C to tape concerts. There is probably a mic that can output the max a D6C can handle at a more affordable price, like $150-$350 compared to $550-$1k, I just don't know what mic that would be, if any. Getting an expensive mic is fine if that is my only option, but before I even consider that, I want to know if I have other options. My goal here is to spend the least amount of money possible, however much that is, on a mic and pre-amp combo that would provide at least the max quality a D6C can handle. I have taped with a D6C, an ECM-MS907 without a pre-amp, and some TDK MA110 tapes before my ECM-MS907 was water damaged. The results were decent. I have a Tool DAT bootleg from an ECM-909 that sounds great and would not mind getting one if that is enough to achieve my goal. I am aware of the limitations of sound quality I get by using a D6C and I am fine with that, I just don't want anything else in the setup to lower the quality even more.

[Gutbucket]

I understand that. I have "taped" with my iPhone before and the results were bad. The first time, I used a field recorder app without level adjustments. Clipping was everywhere. The next time, I used a recorder app with level adjustments. Clipping resulted even after turning the volume to the minimum possible without muting. The app also stopped recording mid show and I had to reset the settings. I also know that bands like Phish already record and release DSBD recordings that are much better than any DAUD recording I would make. Sure, getting a DAT Walkman would eliminate that problem and I would consider taping both analog and digital in the future to patch in what is lost from tape flips, but first I want to prioritize analog because few people, if any, do it anymore and I started collecting cassettes over a decade ago. I have done it with an ECM-MS907 without a pre amp and TDK MA110 tapes, but my ECM-MS907 got water damaged and I was looking for better options since I am in need of new recording equipment. I only used the ECM-MS907 because it came with my D6C. The results were good, but I can imagine the results being even better with a pre-amp and a better mic. Sure, not higher quality than digital, but if I can't achieve better than a DSBD anyway, I can at least achieve good analog results. I have listened to great analog bootlegs. I have also listened to horrible analog bootlegs.

^ Ahhh, seems the real problem is recording to your phone! Avoid recording to your phone and use a dedicated SD card based digital recorder.  Stop. Period. Done. Feel free to thank us later. That will be much easier and fool-proof.  It will pretty much feel the same operationally as recording to cassette without most of the problems, hassles, and expense. Simple, reliable, easier, better quality.

If you want cassettes, make a dub directly from the digital recorder (or from the file once transferred, but can totally avoid the computer if you wish).  You can then have the best of both worlds.  The resulting tape will sound better than a cassette recording made directly.  Really.  For a few reasons. 

As Daspy sagely mentions, cassette may be fun for some tapers for nostalgia purposes, but I'd not recommend starting there.. and definitely not with DAT.

Analog recording to cassette does not avoid the problems you describe above. You'll still need to make sure the gain-staging through the signal path works without clipping, excess distortion or noise either way. DAT doesn't avoid those problems either, and does not simplify things compared to cassette other than avoiding the flip. I'd strongly recommend you avoid starting there, DAT is already "digital recording" AND arguably has even more hassles, problems and expense, so skip all that and go straight to recording to SD card, using a simple and reliable digital recorder able to be operated using its own controls just like a cassette deck. No need to mess with a control app.

Once you get SD recording nailed and can make good recordings without the problems you mention, then sure, haul out the cassette recorder, wire-spool recorder or the wax-cylinder cutter if you want the challenge.  But you'll still produce a better wire-spool or Edison cylinder by dubbing from the SD card backup recording you'll have by then wisely learned to make at the same time.


Also, it is possible to make recordings that are as good or better than many DSBDs, better in some ways (not generic cookie cutter with an oddly distant sounding audience), and more convincing in the sense of feeling like you stepped into a time-machine and have actually returned to the show.  That's why many of us keep doing it. Yeah it requires very good gear and a real dedication to the craft. ECM-MS907 is great, but isn't going to do that.  It is inexpensive and will work nicely into with an inexpensive SD recorder.

[bonghitwillie]

6 months ago a 64gb sd card was $10. now they are $25. wish i bought more then. ssds, hds and cards are only going to get more expensive until new plants are on line and that will be in 3 years.

[morst]

6 months ago a 64gb sd card was $10. now they are $25. wish i bought more then. ssds, hds and cards are only going to get more expensive until new plants are on line and that will be in 3 years.

At some point the AI bubble will POP and that pressure should disappear!?
#TheSoonerTheBetter

[rocksuitcase]

As a person with over 5,000 cassettes still in the house and owner/operator of several Nakamichi Cassette decks I have been reading this thread and waiting for the right moment to chime in.
1] You are NOT crazy, IF this is what you wish to do, then go for it, obviously you are aware of the limitations.
      many people still use the Sony D6 or D5 to do recordings, just not many doing the types of live recordings most on TS do. Check out tapeheads.net if you haven't.
2] How about trying dynamic microphones? No need for a pre-amp this would use the D6's Sony pre-amps (not ideal, but cuts out a piece of gear). Of course, you could still use a pre-amp if you choose, but would not be restricted to having one.
    In my sig line I still list my Beyer M201c's that are at least 30 years old. I stealthed with these many times, they are a bit larger than the Line Audios. There are Sennheiser dynamics and others out there.
3] As far as blank tapes, after years of listening back to what we recorded in the 1980's and 1990s (I stopped analog late, as in 1997) I can say the best retention of the analog signal seems to be type II tapes. We went to type IV relatively early in the game and I must have 6-700 metal masters along with thousands of chrome masters, and ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (playback decks, cleanliness, electronics, etc) I believe I prefer the chrome tapes and can actually point to where we used both Chrome and Metal in different decks but plugged out of the same mics that the chromes have held up better over the years, less playback issues and more high frequency retention than the metals. I spent hours on tapeheads reading and querying the folks on there who KNOW their cassettes and can figure that 1] the metal oxide coatings are "rougher" on tape heads and 2] seem to not have as much signal retention after 25+ years and 3] the chrome coatings of the higher quality brands such as Maxell and TDK seem to have been more "consistent" which, of course, leads to 4] I have had some of the best, but certainly not ideal storage conditions for my tapes. never stored them flat, always on their spines and mainly in AC or temperature controlled environments.

all that said, the types of blanks available nowadays are either old NOS or the newer manufacturers which I have not tried. There are sellers of claimed NOS and used tapes on tapeheads