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Author Topic: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show  (Read 1,625 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2026, 02:32:55 PM »
Following up, in reply to 'Cooker and Rock', I hear what you're saying.

Part of the art is adapting to whatever the situation might be.  Yet another Goldilocks thing.  Fortunately remains possible to run wide rigs outdoors for things like taper-friendly fests, park concerts, and plenty of other things.  Indoor and big corporate venues can be more challenging. In some cases the only solution may be a small very compact rig, but getting creative with how you do it can open up a lot of options which would otherwise not seem workable.

Granted I've not been taping as frequently as I used to, but fortunately I've not had problems running my high-channel count rig in the venues I frequent.  I do realize part of what eases that for me is how small my rig can get, made possible by a shift to using miniature microphones in all positions along with a DIY mic-bar solution that allows for quickly telescoping from 2' to 6' wide or anywhere in between in a properly deployed arrangement, and can be made even more compact if the arms are angled rather than extending straight out to either side.  Other than running up high on a big light-stand, I can clamp it, put it on a low floor-stand onstage where the entire rig is just 6" tall, strap it to a column using velcro straps.. I've even hung it on the small coat/pocket-book hooks on the underside of a bar where I could extend width out as far as I liked (stage only ~6' away from the bar, enough room to pass between bar and stage but not stand there, everyone watching from the opposite side of the bar).. perched it up in the rafters.. set on top of a bookshelf..

I only implemented that change after proving to myself that I was able to make recordings in that way that compared favorably to using regular size mics, along with their bigger cabling, bigger connectors, larger bars, mounts and everything else (except for the size of the windscreens). The only non-miniature microphone I later added was the Side-channel fig-8, necessary since no miniature fig-8s exist, later swapped out for the standard-sized short stereo shotgun, which features an integrated fig-8 Side channel and uses a single 5-pin standard size XLR.. both imperative features for me in keeping things as compact as possible when introducing that larger microphone.

I realize big stands supporting wide arrays done in standard ways have become more and more difficult to accommodate, and that's why I've put a lot of effort into making my primary rig flexible enough to keep as many options open as I can, in order to take best advantage of whatever opportunities arise.

More power to the tapers that are focused primarily on getting it done efficiently and posted for to folks to listen to. That's ultimately more important than what I have to share. What's possible and how good I can get it are obviously strong motivators for me, but needn't be for everyone.  Its fun for me to analyze and figure this stuff out with the help of others including the contributing members here at TS, to do my best to condense and pass along to others what I've learned about what's possible and outline some possible routes to get there.  That's where my interest lies and is what I can best give back to the community. Do with it what you will. 

Thanks for the bandwidth.  Revising what I posted earlier in this light- 

"The big question becomes not only how much gear and effort you wish to put into it, but how effectively you're able to work within the constraints imposed by the recording situations you encounter."
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline roffels

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Re: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2026, 10:19:31 AM »
Thank you again for all the advice. The xy center and spaced omnis sound fantastic. I don't think i could have made a better tape. I have a board feed as well and now have to figure out if i want to use it. I usually always do but there's just something about a solid audience tape that feels so good

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 05:07:46 PM »
Great to hear it worked out well and you're happy with the results.  Having SBD recorded but deciding afterward you don't really need it because your AUD recording is fully satisfying on its own is what I consider to be one of the proper measures of really getting it right.  Always makes me smile when that happens.

Good SBD-like clarity from an AUD is half the battle, I'd say the more important half when SBD access is unavailable.  The other half is everything else you want in a really good recording that you simply don't  get from a SBD feed.  Having both aspects portrayed well and in good balance with each other is the true measure of success.

Congraduations.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

Offline Top Hat

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Re: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 08:09:22 PM »
Quote from: roffels on July 20, 2026, 12:42:29 PM
Quote from: Top Hat on July 20, 2026, 02:32:44 AMAmbi's are a waste of time...emphasis on "timing" cause its all over the place.



Can you tell me what you mean by this?

They might not be the right tool here but they've been a gamechanger elsewhere, specifically on stage. I haven't been a fan of using one FOB but have used it as a minimalist rig elsewhere (stack tapes mostly)

Thank you everyone for your feedback. This festival will be running two stages - not sure what sort of access I'll have but maybe I'll end up running a rig at each stage and compare notes.
"Specifically on stage"
Yes, I can see this stage application being a good one for ambi's.
What I mean by "TIMING", an ambisonic  can create issues with phase cancellation and dilute your mix as with ANY type of array greater than 2 mics. Now, If this diluted tonal response is what you are after then go for it. IMHO, The last thing I want is to capture any back slap or add another source where the sines are so opposite of each other and adding this with a solid sound where, for example, a CK63s pick up pattern eliminates this. 9/10 using more than 2 mics when taping is really not needed. I have listened to several sources compared to 2 mic sources and the 2 mic sources win my praise everytime. Simple physics, but EVERYONE is going to do things differently which is fine. It all depends what is pleasant to you really. As tapers we are not "producing" anything for mass production. We are just a bunch individuals with individual tastes. I'm just a science nerd and thie physics of sound make 100% sense to me on paper, and that translates best to my ears.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:14:32 PM by Top Hat »

Offline morst

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Re: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 09:06:57 PM »
Quote from: Top Hat on Yesterday at 08:09:22 PM9/10 using more than 2 mics when taping is really not needed. I have listened to several sources compared to 2 mic sources and the 2 mic sources win my praise everytime. Simple physics, but EVERYONE is going to do things differently which is fine. It all depends what is pleasant to you really. As tapers we are not "producing" anything for mass production. We are just a bunch individuals with individual tastes. I'm just a science nerd and thie physics of sound make 100% sense to me on paper, and that translates best to my ears.
Personally, I only use more than two mics when the mic position is rather drastically different, such as FoH pair + on (or near) stage pair.
I have not measured specifically, but I believe this technique should be uncorrelated enough to avoid most audible cancellation.
I have used four mics on stage a few times, but positioned them as a central cardioid pair, with the other two (wide cardioid) mics spread pretty wide.
Usually when I run mics on stage I also have a board feed but it's not always workable (or any good lol ugh!)

Here's a 4 mics on stage thing I made https://archive.org/details/Nolatet2018-06-06.KM143-FLAC2448

And here's a six channel (4 on stage plus SBD) that I did. I think it came out good, and then the band used it for the audio on the multi camera video that they allowed/commisioned.
https://archive.org/details/MonksOfDoom2018-10-10.FLAC1648
Official Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD8gvVrJwbw

In the rare event that I use two cardioid pairs near each other, I post them separately in order to allow gear comparisons...
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:09:29 PM by morst »

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show
« Reply #35 on: Today at 11:30:13 AM »
In response to GB:
The main reason I don;t run OMT more now is twofold:
1] I have been getting more options to run soundboards and typically run onstage, two omnis spread or FOH PAS pair with the SBD
https://archive.org/details/gp2026-06-27.sbddpa4060               omnis onstage
https://archive.org/details/sqwerv2026-06-27.sbddpa4060        omnis onstage
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2026-05-09.akgck63c34sbd    to pair of mics FOH

2] Many indoor venues we go to don't afford me the option. That said, I DO as often as possible when we have front row balcony at a few venues we frequent tape the omni pair wide (4-8 feet_) and run a center pair or two. Outdoor I love OMT.
https://archive.org/details/lotus2026-04-11.akgck6361dpa4060   omnis spread wide with two center pair
https://archive.org/details/phish2019-07-02akgomt                     OMT6

In response to the physics of OMT- there is much literature and a large amount of samples of widely spaced omnis and center mics going back to the radio days. As has been discussed on this forum before; the math behind classic  OMT 4 or OMT6 goes way back. David Griesenger (sp?) and many others contributed to the knowledge base.  Having studied acoustics and RTV at university, when I first came upon Gutbucket's posts I studied them and came to the conclusion that his basic math is correct. The concepts of de-correlation are well studied. IMO, the main difference in how a typical audience taper such as myself would work with OMT vs two channels would be quality of the signals themselves and the ears mixing them down.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Help on deciding a rig for an outdoor show
« Reply #36 on: Today at 02:57:18 PM »
Thanks.  Will give a listen to the examples posted above when I can.

Breaking it down as simply as possible, to me the best recordings achieve a good balance between two essential things: direct clarity and everything else desirable (which SBD doesn't provide).  The simplest routes to achieving that goal are best.  That's really the fundamental basis of what I'm trying to do myself and promote here at TS. I hope I don't come across as promoting complexity for its own sake, but rather only as a means of achieving that goal.  I prefer to keep things as simple as I can.

Good direct clarity + everything else desirable. A really good basic stereo pair is capable of that! Therein lies the magic of a well configured stereo pair, setup optimally and ideally positioned. I love that.  But everything has to be just right for that to happen, and to my way of thinking, expecting everything to be just right is more of a reach than setting about going about it in other ways. So instead I go back to those two most important aspects again, considering how I might be able to focus on each of them individually and then carefully combine them as an alternate route to achieving the goal more fully and consistently.

That's not necessarily complicated.  Mic pair + SBD does it.. more so when the SBD feed is good, clean and reliable enough that the mic pair can be more safely dedicated to getting the "everything else" part right by way of being relieved of also having to provide good direct clarity.

Sometimes its done within the mic-setup itself.  Spaced omnis + a center coincident pair is a good example. The two pairs play different roles.  The center pair provides most of the direct clarity, the spaced omnis most of the everything else desirable.   Either pair in isolation may not be as compelling as a single well optimized stereo pair, but in combination they can exceed it, constantly.

Continuing in further pursuit of a richer more rewarding version of everything else, or a cleaner/clearer and sharper version of direct clarity, we might bring in other channels in carefully considered waysWhere best to cease that pursuit comes down to the intersection between the situations in which we find ourselves recording and our own tolerance for doing the extra stuff.

Rocksuitcase's example of having SBD + omnis on stage is an easily achievable method for targeting those two basic elements somewhat more separately.  Most listeners will probably feel there's really no need for doing more, to which I say, hallelujah! ..but I'm going to keep chasing the nexus between what's possible and what's practically achievable within my means. That exploration is a big part of where its at for me, but of course it needn't be for other tapers.  Thanks to folks like Rock for trying the more out there ideas such as OMT for themselves, and thanks to everyone here for tolerating my oddball take on things and overly-wordy posts.  I can only hope sharing of some of this stuff helps others who don't share the same motivations and goals, as much as it does the handful who do.

We stand on the shoulders of giants. I'd not be doing or talking about any of this if it was not for the tapers who forged the way, and if not for experts far more educated, experienced and specialized than I ever hope to be.  In that light Michael Williams reached out to me a few months back after he'd found his way to TS and we've been having some good email conversations. I plan to ask him directly about some of this stuff, similar to previous conversations I've been fortunate to have had with other titans including David Greisinger, Jorg Jecklin, Bob Kats, Stan Linkwitz, Dan Healy, and others without easily recognizable names that have been so open, helpful and sharing of what they know and how it might be applied to what we are doing. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to for the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: Version 4 provided in individual sections rather than a single booklet)

 

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