Topic: NEWBIE - need help with selecting a recording volume

[Evil Taper]

Hi, I have not previously recorded in an extremely high SPL environment and was wondering at about what level I should set my recorders volume.  My recorder can be set from 0-30 and this will be a stealth situation so I will not be able to mess with the settings after I get situated.  My gear is as follows:

Sony MZ-R37 MD Recorder
GSA Omnidirectional Stereo Mics
GSA Power Supply w/ Bass Roll Off

The band I'm recording is Marilyn Manson in a fairly large venue, I believe it is suited for around 10,000 people.  Thanks for helping a newbie.

[Humbug]

Do you have any time to do any testing beforehand (record a local band maybe?). If this fails, try with your hifi as loud as your neighbours will take it...

Not familiar with your setup, but my guess would be:

-max volume
-LINE in, not mic-in on the minidisc

Other suggestions:

-mount mics as high up as you are comfortable with
-Record dead f centre, about 5-10m back, or wherever the sweet spot is if possible (unless its a seated venue of course). If you find yourself in the mosh pit, move back
-Definitely use some bass roll off

[Evil Taper]

Ok thanks.  The bass roll-off is not selectable, it's built into the power supply.  Is there any con against mounting the mics on a shirt collar modified for stiffness?  The security at this venue has been nosey at times and I'm not wanting to have anything visible.  I am planning on clipping them to my strengthened tee-shirt collar, wearing a knit hat, having a hood up, putting some hair in front of the mics, and then running all the wires inside of my clothes which I've also modified for stealth abilities.

About the venue, the sound booth is in the center of the rear of the floor, so at least 20 feet behind the pit in the center.  Normally there will be a small quanitity of people standing in this general vacinity.  My ideal position would be directly in front of the sound man correct?  Thanks for any help again it's much appreciated.  Also I'll get out and try to record at a local bar and some extremely loud machinery and some other things to gauge the impedance of the recorder.  Peace.

[Evil Taper]

One more thing...should I use windscreens or not?

[Humbug]

That sounds a bit excessive - unless you want to go for the spy look! Its usually dark in a venue and security have more pressing issues (admiring their fake orange tans, perhaps)

I usually collar mount my mics. Prefer a shirt but have used a T-shirt in the past. I found the mics are easier to point in the right direction (they are cardioid pattern) using a stiff collar. I did get better sound putting them on my specs though.

Pros for collar mounting mics:
-less visibility
-your head can move more (without messing up the sound)

Cons for collar mounting mics:
-slightly less quality

See also my 'stealth shirt', which I succesfully tested this weekend:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=29393.0

Sweet spot depends on many factors - the venue, how skilled the sound man is, etc. Generally if there is a support I wander around listening to how the sound changes.

Hope this helps...

[Humbug]

The only time you would require windscreens INDOORS is if they turn on the air conditioning and it blows over you. This is pretty rare though, mostly I'm way hot at venues.

[Evil Taper]

Thanks for the help, from what i've tested the recorder seems to be most comfortably at threshhold at 27 of 30 recording volume.  I have decided to clip the mics on my knit hat next to my ears.  The venue is shaped elyptically and the stage is in the center of one of the wide sides.  From past shows the best sound has usually been around the center about halfway back.  I am psyched about this test of my taping skills and hope it all turns out.  Thanks people.

[King Crimson]

max volume?

wouldnt you be afraid of brickwalling?

[Evil Taper]

Well, what is a good volume then?  About 80% of max?  I haven't recorded with this device in an environment like this before.  I've had people tell me I should record at 50% volume and others have said 100% so what should I actually be recording at?

[Humbug]

I can only go with my (brief) experience of taping with a minidisc:

Sound Professionals CMC2 mics >
Sound Professionals SPSB1 battery box >
Sharp MT99 minidisc (line in)

For whatever reason, I was getting pretty low signals, and had to boost them a lot after the event in an editing program. Using the same setup with a Nomad JB3 recorder, I get a much louder recording which needs minimal boosting.

You didn't say whether it was a band or your hi-fi you've tested it with.

Have a look at what you've recorded at vol 27 in the editing program - if you are anywhere close to 0dB, or the waves are flattening off at the top, you probably need to go a bit lower.

Please, someone with more experience of minidisc recording chime in here..

[Roamer]

I tried once going line-in (also a metal band : U.D.O.) with a Sharp MD-MT190 and a Sony ECM-719 mic, and the signal was also low (even at 30/30).
Try your setup before the concert if possible, and/or record the opening act, so that you get an idea of what to expect during the main act.
Good luck!

[jesse]

I used a sony MZ-R700 for a year and going line in you will always have to boost volume in post.  Unless you are going to pre or a battery box with db boost.  If you can try to get you're mics up in a hat I think you will like the results.  I would recomend a cheap stealthy pre should get you levels where you wan't them.  My buddie has my old stealth rig; MZ-R700>ECM-907 and I am always running his shows thru post.   I wan't to get him one of the chruch audio dudes pre's for christmas and see how that works out for him.  Go line in and crank it.  I think you wil be loving the bass roll off w/this show. 

[jesse]

Also try to monitor you're levels.  my guess is that going line with max rec volume you won't be running any hotter than -10db.   If you brick wall back off a little bit. hope this helps

[Evil Taper]

Ok here's what I've recorded:

Drumset from about 18" at 28 of 30 with zero distortion and no normalization needed in post production.
Loud car stereo at 20 of 30 with no distortion but in need of a large amount of boost in post.
Hi-Fi at a very loud volume with intense frequency ranges, electronic music very synth heavy, at 25 of 30 also with zero distortion and no normalization required.

So from what I've been able to test have the recorder set to nearly full volume in a very loud environment has made clean and good volumed recordings.  I am just uncertain of exactly how loud this band is going to be in this venue.  The recorder unfortunately does not have a backlit LCD so as far as gauging the opening bands recording would be extremely difficult.  Keep in mind that my entire recording setup has costed me about $150 total.  I'm not expecting any recordings to rival a Coresound recording but the other Manson shows, mostly recorded with cheap sony ecm mics sound very good in my opinion.  So all I'm really concerned with is clipping of high volume elements during the recording.  Also another point of interest about the gear I'm using:

Mics
20 - 20,000 Hz flat frequency response
-44 decibel +3 decibels sensitivity
Low sound to noise ratio > 58 dB

Power Supply
9 volt supply to Line In
Bass roll-off on Line In starting at 169hz and decreases generally about 3db at every octave.

Don't know if this info helps but any input is appreciated.

[Humbug]

+t for all the research, sounds like you've got a good idea of what levels to use. For safety go around 20-25, I guess.

My advice is to take a small flashlight - one of the AAA mini maglites, (black for stealth of course  ), and use it to check levels at the beginning, and also to allow you to time the media flip (around the 70-75 minute mark). Don't worry about turning it on briefly, after all lots of people around you will be doing daft things with backlit cellphones..

Edited to add - forgot you dont have any level adjustment when recording - if theres a support band, put it on pause record and check levels - but remember the main band will probably be a little louder.