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Author Topic: what do you make if this "24bit" show?  (Read 6286 times)

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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2005, 10:53:23 PM »
would it be wrong for me to moderate out the math?

Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2005, 11:05:31 PM »
would it be wrong for me to moderate out the math?

does it make your head hurt?  ;D


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Offline mmedley.

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2005, 11:18:41 PM »
I love Math. That is why I majored in it!  ;D

Good explanation. I learned something new today!

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2005, 12:22:35 AM »
Dan is correct when he says he didn't upsample as upsampling would create a 48, 88.2, 96, etc file.
he DID increase bit depth though.

Duh.  Wrong verbage, that's what I meant:  he increased bit-depth - thanks for the correction!  Your follow-up post makes it more clear to me (damn, I have a tough time discussing this stuff!):

the only way to go from a 16bit file to a 24bit file is to increase bit depth via a plugin.
you can take a 16bit file, apply uv22hr and get a 24bit file.

all its doing is adding dither noise to fill up the extra 8 bits

Edit to add:  if upsampling is changing the sample rate from a lower to a higher rate (through some sort of interpolation, I assume), what's the proper terminology for upping the bit-depth, from say 16- to 24-bit?  I've mostly seen upsampling used to apply to upping the sample rate and/or bit depth.  But maybe there's bit-depth specific terminology?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 12:40:45 AM by Brian Skalinder »
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Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2005, 12:43:12 AM »
what's the proper terminology for upping the bit-depth, from say 16- to 24-bit?  I've mostly seen upsampling used to apply to upping the sample rate and/or bit depth.  But maybe there's bit-depth specific terminology?

I've always heard it referred to as dithering.
"dither" is just the noise used when changing bit-depth, either in the positive or negative.
of course, there are many types of "dither"


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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2005, 07:29:05 AM »
Very interesting people.

Dan and I have been discussing it...


He is using CoolEdit Pro 2.0, fwiw.
I'll see if I can find more stuff from the thread on the BUDD list to post regarding this.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 08:06:50 AM by Nick's Picks »

Offline amdig1

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2005, 08:45:04 AM »
I love this thread and this discussion.  This was exactly what I was hoping for.  However, I think it is better to refrain from any personal pithy comments.  Non personal pithy comments are funny and levity is great.

> huh? I was giving him the benefit of the doubt until I read that...
> I see he was listening while on a BOAT too...
> I know Heath worked at Am-Dig, given his knowledge and experience I kind of assumed everyone who worked there was like that... perhaps not.

Tim, these are all you comments directed at me and not the subject matter.  If I have wronged you in some way I apologize but I think ragging on my knowledge and my home is unnecessary.

I am not trying to fool anyone, I think I have made it abundantly clear what we have and how it came to be.  As anyone been able to download and review the material objectively? I am unable to get a real A/B comparison as I have to rely on the internal A>D of my DVD-A player and the A>D of my CD player.  I prefer looking at real world science in conjunction with the science room.  Sometimes less reading and more listening is of help. 

As Heath (hey man) as pointed out my setup is less than rudimentary.  However, I'll need to correct him as I do not live on a houseboat but actually a Motoryacht.  Short summary is 4 digital surround systems (from the low end $500 in bedroom to a $2500 in the main salon).  All 4 units speak to each other and you can walk up from the master stateroom to the salon into the aft cabin and then up to the flybridge as 24 speakers and 4 subwoofers fill each room.  The system also incorporates a 12v system that is wired throughout and is also in the loop.  At that point you can have 34 speakers and 6 subwoofers in unison.  Beside the audio capacity she is also equipped with 7 digital flat panel monitors including a 42 inch plasma.  Just a wee shy of a boom box and a dinghy.

Not that any of this is important with the subject matter but I'd like to clear that up.  As my knowledge was brought into question I'll address.  I am not a sound engineer and what I lack in schooling I think is compensated with real world experience.  You don't need school to hear.  Anyone can be a judge in what sounds better.  B/c that ends up being a personal choice with many mitigating factors it is equally important to look at the o's and 1's too.  I would assume that the right person with the right gear can tell us more.

Anyway I am really interested in finding out what is at play hear, pun intended.  Is there and audible difference?  Is the increased bit depth worth the bandwidth and/or the time and expense of creating DVD-A of this type of multichannel mixdown?  Has the 16/44 mixdown lost anything important compared to the 24 bit?  Would 20 bit suffice and/or be better?

This is certainly a worthy science project.

Dan

Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2005, 09:11:42 AM »
Dan, I dont think anyone said it DIDN'T sound better.

I believe the it was mainly a question of how you ended up with the 24bit file when working with 16bit sources.
whether intentionally or not, you dithered it to 24bit...it didnt do it by itself as the text file accomponying the show would lead everyone to believe.


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Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2005, 09:27:48 AM »
Good to see you poking your head in here Dan.  I was going to point you to the lsite to check out the discussion today, but you beat me to it!  Anyhow, regarding the topic at hand...  Luvean is correct in stating that dithering had to have taken place for the 16 bit sources to get to a 24 bit fileset.  It's just a matter of how your DAW handled the conversion.  I'm assuming what you did was create a new session (at a bit depth of 24 bit) and import the 16 bit filesets into individual channels to mixdown.  When these files were imported into the DAW, they were dithered to 24 bit so that they could be used in the session by the software.  You then mixed at 24 bit and your resulting file from the mixdown was a 24 bit file. 

What I would like to hear (for my own sake) is the exact same mixdown performed in the same DAW, but in a 16bit session.  Then compare the 16bit mixdown with the 24bit mixdown to hear exactly what the difference is...I am going to download and listen here in the studio and I'll let you know if I can hear an audible difference between the 24 and 16 bit versions. 

Dan--I also want to take the time to personally thank you for all the great stuff you've been seeding for a while.  Matrixes, DTS mixes, etc...  You really put a lot of time into this stuff, and I, for one, absolutely love it!  Keep up the good work.

H
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Offline amdig1

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2005, 09:44:37 AM »
Thank you Heath.  I agree and am compairing the same sources at 24 and 16.  But have the diffent D to A problem.  I need more people to check this stuff out.  I will be uploading GD 7-16-76 in DTS, 16 matrix and 24 DVD-A matrix soon.  So we will have something alse that we can shake, rattle, sniff and probe.

Any text file is subject to misinterpreted.  I am open for suggestions.  I try to be as detailed as possible as you can tell by the super lengthy text file included.  At the core of the controversy with the text file and the recording is this..."I did not upsample either source to 24 bit.  The multitrack mixdown was done in 24 bit and the 'new source' is now 24 bit".  Or some crazy variation, thereof.  That's what were are looking into.  I don't want to confuse or mislead anyone and I don't think I am.  I've put out all info I have on this and we are trying to see if it is worth it.  That what was done and I think we all know that.  Better description I can include on the text file anyone??

> Dan, I dont think anyone said it DIDN'T sound better.

I think that is at the heart of what we are trying to get at, no?  That's all I am interested in.  At the end of the technobabble rainbow, which sounds better.  Right?

It's not gonna hurt my feeling if the debate lends itself to the common consensus that saving, distributing and most importantly listening to this 24 bit version is a waste, or possible worse than the same mixdown at 16 bit.  I am very concerned that the extra bit are just noise even if ambient agreeable noise.  Are the extra bits desirable, useful, the opposite?  I feel like we still don't know.  I don't trust my "real world" listening comparison enough and hope someone can do their own.  I think we still don't know the answer here and curiosity is tweaked.  One thing is true.  I can save allot of time, money and bandwidth by staying with 16 bit.

Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2005, 09:52:31 AM »
I'll definitely post my thoughts once I have had a chance to download and listen to both on the monitors here at the studio. 
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Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2005, 10:10:56 AM »
and sorry for calling it a houseboat instead of a motoryacht...my bad  ;) ;D 
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2005, 10:17:25 AM »
and sorry for calling it a houseboat instead of a motoryacht...my bad  ;) ;D 

 :P

Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2005, 10:30:18 AM »
damon--now that you're a mod, can you make a motion to bring back the smilies.  I want to flip someone off, and the :flippa: would really be helpful  :P


back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2005, 10:32:36 AM »
it's my understanding that when we switched over to v.2, we lost the ability to plug in those additional smilies...

 

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