Topic: Experienced Stealth Taper Lookin' For New Tricks (and Mics)

[campbeln]

          Hey all,
     Alright, I've been stealth taping for a number of years (which sounds allot more impressive then it is, I've done about 12-14 shows, from 50k+ festivals to 2k concert halls). I started out with a mini-cassette dictaphone thing (yea laugh, youth) then quickly moved onto a TCD-D7 DAT rig with MarcSounds Mics/BattBox/Amp/Whatever (i.e. - MarcSounds Mics > MarcSounds BattBox Thing > D7). Now, thanks to 9-11 and all the added security, I've upgraded my rig to a NJB3, but I've still got those old ass MarcSounds mics and that damned BattBox that looks like some kind of explosive device (the 2 9Vs lashed to the bottom of the thing and the 8+ wires coming out of it just look great).
     First off... I've been working in a bubble for the last nine years. Getting the gear in has never been a problem, and I've (thankfully) never even been close to caught. So I think I've got those points down fairly well. But am I doing it "right" from a more technical standpoint? I clip the MarcSounds Mics onto a normal baseball cap thru the opposing breather holes (a standard baseball cap as 6, I use the 2 furthest to the left and right). The wires run down the back of my neck (covered by the brim of the reversed cap, the hood of my sweater and generally also by the t-shirt draped over my neck that I bought that night). The mics are on the underside of the cap, so that the hat itself becomes the wind guard (I've never had an issue with picking up hat movement noise, nor wind noise). The cables run down to my beltline, plug into the BattBox then into the D7 / NJB3-WAV (which are at the front, I'm always going to protect my nuts, so I figure if the recorder is sitting right above them, it'll be protected too =).
     I've read on this site that it's best to use your head as the division for the L/R by either placing the mics on your glasses or on the opposite sides of your head. So, are the opposing L/R holes of a baseball cap enough of a buffer? I tried recording a festival show last week with a visor, so the mics were literally on each side of my head, but they picked up a hell of allot more crowd noise then usual (I'm pretty sure the MarcSounds are omni's). So does it come down to a balancing act of L/R separation -vs- crown noise?
     What is the best position for general stealth recording? I generally try to setup at about half and half - that is half way between the speaker banks and about halfway back in the venue (some of the shows, I've been a good 15m+ from the speakers with results I was happy with). Is this a good rule of thumb? Or is there more of a sweet-spot that is X meters (or feet) from the speaker banks? Is there any better rule of thumb to follow here then my own "half and half"?
     And lastly... what would you recommend as a replacement for these MarcSounds mics? I've always been rather happy with the recordings. Of course, I really don't know any better! The MarcSounds have made better then average audience recordings that I have heard, but I'm sure there are better mics out there (especially since mine are a good 8 years old now). I've read a bit on the Core Sounds (http://www.core-sound.com/cardioid.html), and heard mention of the Sound Pro (http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=9185&template=homepage) and Giant Squid (http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-cardbattery1.html) offerings. Is there anything else is there to look at? Of these or any others, what would you suggest?
     As for my specifics... I'm focused on a single band that play in venues from 2k concert halls to indoor arenas to festivals (rhymes with “Yeast-y Toys” =). I need mics that can run into the non "plug in power"-ed NJB3. I need as stealth-ly as I can get and I'm willing to spend $300-400-ish or so to get it. I'd love to drop nearly 1k on the high-end CS stealths, but I just can't justify that!
     So, tips? Tricks? Suggestions? Anyone?

Many thanks to any suggestions you can offer!

PS – Ok, one more “and lastly” question… Is there any recording rig that is super small that records in something approaching a good quality? I looked over this thread (http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30232.0) and the XEN-200 1gig sounds like a viable alternative recording rig if security has issue with my NJB3. I’d love something in the iPod-ish size that records in a high bitrate and has enough storage for a 3+ hour concert. Of course, a unit that recorded to WAV would be the ultimate, but since we all know that doesn’t exist (yet) what can you suggest for a *tiny* backup recorder?

[campbeln]

Anyone? Anyone have anything to say? I need new mics, darnit!

[jaguaracer]

those coresounds sound great.
at853 (from soundprofessionals) would be great if you budge was under $200
Giant Squid are pretty low-budget mics, but a lot of people have been recently starting out with them.
DPA4061s or DPA4021s sound great though.  They are a bit more pricey (400-600) but many people around here rave about their DPA mics. It is omnidirectional btw.
Hope I'm helpful.

[MarkDavidson218]

I've used the at853 a few times and i have hard great recordings to walk away with
-mark

[MattD]

DPA4061s or DPA4021s sound great though. They are a bit more pricey (400-600) but many people around here rave about their DPA mics. It is omnidirectional btw.

The 4021s are cardioids and at least 3x (used) the high end of that price you listed. With the dollar falling against the Euro these days, I'd expect closer to 4x.

[Humbug]

The AT853s I've been using (with CMC8 bodies, into SP battery box), overloaded badly at a loud rock gig. I'm now looking into a JK labs box for them, providing the guy who owns them will sell..

I continue to be amazed with the recordings I get with my standard setup, below. They work very well for extremely loud rock recordings right the way through to acoustic stuff. I doubt they're as good as DPA4061s though.

[nickgregory]

The AT853s I've been using (with CMC8 bodies, into SP battery box), overloaded badly at a loud rock gig. I'm now looking into a JK labs box for them, providing the guy who owns them will sell..

yup, the SP powered versions of these mics flat out suck for bassy shows...the mics will distort with any combination of high SPLs and bass.  That being said, the AT853Rx units, which are outfit to be powered off of 48V are a nice mic for <$300...in terms of the tapes produced.  You will need a phantom power source, but you wont get the same distortion issues that the SP powered versions do...

[Humbug]

Thanks, thats the feedback I've been getting from people that use 853s, I'm still hoping to try a JK labs box instead of phantom.

[pfife]

406x's rule your face.

[Humbug]

     What is the best position for general stealth recording? I generally try to setup at about half and half - that is half way between the speaker banks and about halfway back in the venue (some of the shows, I've been a good 15m+ from the speakers with results I was happy with). Is this a good rule of thumb? Or is there more of a sweet-spot that is X meters (or feet) from the speaker banks? Is there any better rule of thumb to follow here then my own "half and half"?

Too many questions all at once, which is why people have been concentrating on the mic issue. To be honest, this is where you should be too..

Anyway I've recorded stealth from lots of different places, in tons of venues. I've found dfc (dead f'in centre) works well, around 4-8 metres from stage in small venues, further back in larger ones - outside the mosh pit, if there is one.

However, I have also made good recordings from the stage lip, front row balcony, even half way back on the balcony if it is seated. A lot depends on the acoustics of the venue, and the skill of the sound guy.

Does this help a little?

[Depechemode1993]

well me I would defintely go with some DPA 406x's whichever ones you get you are going to get awsome sound. or try the Sonic Studio DSM/6L's I think they are called but a but pricey but totally worth it. give you a full crisp sound. also i usually when i am stealthing i usually go either right in front of one stack or right in front of the board, as i usually go in front of the stacks at a bar and in front of the board in bigger venues. you would think i would do it the other way around but i like to get some crowd noise in the recording just to get the atmosphere. for me i am a walking stand '6 "5 so i usually don't get alot of crowd noise but whatever you do good luck.

btw, what have you recorded?

[OOK]

I would go with the AT/SP 853's............with a battery box...its small.........good quailty and the ability to change capsules.
I started with 853's before switch to MBHO's.I still have them for stealthing purposes.......

[sunjan]

PS – Ok, one more “and lastly” question… Is there any recording rig that is super small that records in something approaching a good quality? I looked over this thread (http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30232.0) and the XEN-200 1gig sounds like a viable alternative recording rig if security has issue with my NJB3. I’d love something in the iPod-ish size that records in a high bitrate and has enough storage for a 3+ hour concert. Of course, a unit that recorded to WAV would be the ultimate, but since we all know that doesn’t exist (yet) what can you suggest for a *tiny* backup recorder?

Anyone with experience of the new Edirol R1 yet? At least the footprint should be substantially smaller than the JB3.
AFAIK, it records to WAV and can take 2GB Compact Flash, the main drawback no optical in. But then again, for ultra-stealth you'd probably sacrifice the extra A/D and run the mic straight into the R1 anyway!?

What mics would you guys run if you went for the R1? I'm not sure what connectors it has for mic-in. 3,5mm mini-stereo plug only?

Jan

[sygdwm]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=36745.0

[Steelcorner27]

OK for me If I'm using any kind of omni mic for me standing within 50' the stack is the place to be 15' is actually where I like to be. But then again I hate croud noise and the low sensitivity of my 4061's or my old CSB's makes this no problem at all. As for the AT853's they are a (line in) mic only unless you are in the back 40, Any attempt to use them (mic in) at a loud rock concert is a waste of time even with my modified pre amp in my D8 it is a no go. So for me if you want to tape and not have to think to about it use some omni's (4061's)  in close. If you want a beter result get some condencers and work a little harder at it.
Brad