Topic: Recording Classical Guitar

[Cyril]

Hello all,

New member, first post. OK, basically I am new to recording and have done as much reading as I can and need some direction. I realize most of the members are tapers but I think you are all more than qualified to help. Pretend I am hiring you as a consultant to find the best solution for me. Here are my needs and my budget:

-- Recording solo classical guitar
-- Portability would be nice but not critical
-- Can't record to the computer but can use the computer for editing (basic editing needs such as adding a little reverb)
-- Want to keep it simple the fewest # of components (at most a mic, preamp and recorder)
-- Obviously the best sound I can get is the most important thing outweighing everything else (except using the computer as the recorder). Since I am recording classical guitar I would want a clean sound, no recording hiss, and enough gain level (?) to get decent volume on playback.
-- Budget is between $1000 - $1200

Ok, some ideas I had included:

-- Stand alone recorder like the Edirol R-1, Microtracker or PMD 660 with a decent stereo mic, maybe the Rode NT-4 (no external preamp)
-- Stand alone recorders/mixers like Fostex or Tascam (DP01FX)...with a decent mic and/or better preamp (RNP, M-Audio).

Alright, so you have been hired...fire away! And thanks much in advance.

Cyril

[setboy]

is the Classical Guitar going to be going over some kind of P.A.?


Raphael

[Cyril]

No PA. Just solo recording in home setting. I am assuming without an elaborate recording environment, I would need to do close mic'ing.

[BC]

Did you google acoustic guitar recording? There must be a ton of stuff out there.

I subscribe to Recording magazine and there was just an article on recording guitar in there.

I refer you to some other sources just because I know there have been very comprehensive and detailed articles out there specifically written about recording acoustic guitar, regarding both techniques and equipment.

Regarding mics for guitar, the Neumann KM184 seems to be a very popular one.

[setboy]

Isn't it fairly traditional to close mic a guitar with two mics, one at the sound hole, and the other towards the bottom frets?
sorry, not a musician, nor a studio guy, but I think I recall something to that effect.

its the sound hole and 12th fret


Raphael

[Cyril]

I did read up on mic placement and mic types, but I am stumped on basically:

-- the recorder
-- preamp
-- a/d converter

Some pieces combine one two or more of the above...so I don't know which way to go.

For example, the R-1 has everything and if I use the battery powered Rode NT-4, I wouldn't need an external preamp...

Or a Tascam DP01FX has both preamp and A/D converter but I don't know the quality of the preamp...or the quality of the A/D converter.

Or I could go mic to a decent preamp (RNP) and then into a Tascam, Fostex or Microtracker...but I don't know which has a better A/D converter.

So, this is where I am stuck, trying to understand how to piece together the right equipment for my needs.  The mic and mic placement are not at this point my major concerns.

Thanks.

Cyril

[BC]

-- Portability would be nice but not critical

Given this factor you probably get more bang for your buck if you buy a non-portable device. My reasoning being that typically you have to spend a little more $$ to engineer/produce a portable device that has the same feature set as a non portable device.

Also, in a given price range I would not think there would be a huge difference in the AD conversion of the various devices available. Of course at a given price if one device has more features it would be reasonable to assume that the amount of resources the company can devote to any one feature (such as AD conversion quality) would be less (I'm thinking in particular about that all-in-one mixer/preamp/recording device you mentioned). It's important to consider your current and future needs and plan around them.

[Chuck]

In general, small diaphram condensor microphones are used to record acoustic guitar. As some have noted, one way to do it is to mic either the sound hole or bridge and or up on the neck, starting around where the neck meets the body. All of these things affect the final sound. For $1000 - $1200 I think something like SP C-4's and a modded PMD 660 would sound great and fit within the requirements. I've used the C-4's and think they can capture the sound of the instrument very well. From what I've heard, the 660 sounds great, but I haven't heard it used in this particular application.

[Swampy]

Hey, lemmie add my .02... My best friend Dan just got a classical guitar/performance batchlors from Duquesne here in Pittsburgh. So being that this past year was his senior year he was playing a lot of masters recitals ect... So I got to record him a lot. I think that the most important part of this whole equation is as far as equipment goes is a quiet, quiet preamp. Next, a quiet room (but there is only so much you can do about that). You budget isn't that huge, but dont overlook preamp. I recorded my friend's last concert for school with Neumann AK40, LC3KA, KM100 & Apogee MiniMe > DAT @ 16/44.1kHz. Now maybe had I lugged the computer out and done 24/96kHz I would have had a little less noise, but still had a bit of hiss at the quiet parts, not a lot by any stretch, but nothing like pro recording. And I was running XY about 3 feet from the guitar... I think a lot of that had to do with the room, but the thousands of dollars that that rig cost still showed some flaws...

As far as micing technique goes, there are probably hundreds and hundreds of articles on placement technique... I would say just google it, and experiment and hear what sounds best to you!

[Cyril]

Hey, lemmie add my .02... My best friend Dan just got a classical guitar/performance batchlors from Duquesne here in Pittsburgh. So being that this past year was his senior year he was playing a lot of masters recitals ect... So I got to record him a lot. I think that the most important part of this whole equation is as far as equipment goes is a quiet, quiet preamp. Next, a quiet room (but there is only so much you can do about that). You budget isn't that huge, but dont overlook preamp. I recorded my friend's last concert for school with Neumann AK40, LC3KA, KM100 & Apogee MiniMe > DAT @ 16/44.1kHz. Now maybe had I lugged the computer out and done 24/96kHz I would have had a little less noise, but still had a bit of hiss at the quiet parts, not a lot by any stretch, but nothing like pro recording. And I was running XY about 3 feet from the guitar... I think a lot of that had to do with the room, but the thousands of dollars that that rig cost still showed some flaws...

As far as micing technique goes, there are probably hundreds and hundreds of articles on placement technique... I would say just google it, and experiment and hear what sounds best to you!

Thanks for the advice...this is where I am a little lost.  I have no clue regarding quiet preamps! That is why I was wondering if it would be better to go with independent pieces (mic, preamp, recorder) or something like the R-1, PMD, Microtrack that already has everything except good external mic??? Which would provide less hiss?  If I went with something like the PMD or Microtracker, will a decent mic work well enough or will I eventually need an upgraded preamp?

Thanks again.

Cyril

[pfife]

Here's what I'd do, as far as preference, or dividing the budget... I'm going to assume portability isn't extremely important, but I think you could still move this, with a littlle hassle....

1) Spend the most on the mic.   

If you want to budget on the mic, check out the Rode NT1.  I've used the NT1, and the NT4, and the NT1 is a much better sounding mic, IMO.   Plus, the NT4 doesn't allow you to spread the capsules, like 2 seperate mics would, and takes up 2 channels.

2) Next, look at the preamp.  For most condenscers, you'll need something with phantom power - Here's some pre's:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search/d=tp?q=microphone+preamp

*Joe Meek!  Joe Meek!*

When I had a small home studio, I was using a Mackie VLZ board mixer, and I found the preamps to be pretty damn nice.  You can pick one of those up for less than $300 if you are willing to use ebay.  The mixer aslo supplied phantom power.

3) Finally, look into cheaper 4/8 track recorders;  You'll find something very sufficient for much cheaper than an R-1, such as:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/240239/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/241106/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/240281/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/242099/

Most of these will record at 24/96 as well, I believe - the 12 track one that I have records at 12/96, and it was made over 5 years ago.  I think its pretty standard now.   Just be careful with these things that its going to be able to transfer to a computer, if that's your ultimate desire.   Finally, these will allow you more flexibility on the input as far as levels, and more flexibility with post processing.

Remember, with the R-1, you have to purchase a somewhat pricey CF card as well... you're going to blow most of your budget (prolly around $600) right there on the r-1, and it might possibly be the least important part (IMO).  ANother issue with the R-1, for your purposes, is that they have 1 level meeter for both channels (in other words, you can't use the meter to analyze your R and L independent from one another.)

Your needs strike me as more of a multitracking situation as opposed to an ambient, stereo recording situation.


hth - and have fun.
 

[heath]

before i add my $.02, I am curious why recording to the computer is out of the question?  if you will be recording at home, and portability is not an issue, and you can edit on the computer, why not record to it?

[Cyril]

before i add my $.02, I am curious why recording to the computer is out of the question?  if you will be recording at home, and portability is not an issue, and you can edit on the computer, why not record to it?

Hi,

Because the computer is placed in an area just outside where my young kids sleep at night (when I will be recording) and I don't want to deal with running long cables throughout the house to the computer.

Cyril

[heath]

valid point.  i was just curious...

As far as a well priced preamp for recording at home, I'd look at the Really Nice Pre. (RNP). 

Link here:

http://www.fmraudio.com/RNP8380.htm

[pfife]

I've heard that the RNP's are really nice (pun intended) too, but I haven't heard one, that I know of...