Stealthy mic comparisons

[Evil Taper]

I guess I should clarify to "stealth cards".  There's only a handful of folks here who have really nice stealth card rigs with the active MBHO/Schoepps/DPA/Neumann rigs.  In my experience with stealth cards they pick up all this bottom end that doesn't sound natural and you have to EQ it like you're mixing a master.  There's definately certain venues where I wish I had a really nice set of cards at, but I'll take transparency and clarity over less crowd noise or bass.  It's all personal taste and I'm just putting my neck out there to give you something to consider.  However, if you're taping something like an acoustic or jazz band, the 4061s will smoke the show for sure.  There's ideal situations for everything.  I'm just not owning any more cards until I can afford some Neumann/MBHO/Schoepps/DPA/Pelusso guns.  If DPA actually does release cards the size of the 4061s that sound good though, I think everyone stealthing will jump on those.  They're small enough to the point where even if you're in the first row the performers aren't going to notice them.  What more could a stealth taper ask for?

[sml42]

Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

i find my rig (dpa cards) to have great clarity and a very realistic sound representation, both in th car and on home playback

You're right, cards are a lot more forgiving but I value the transparency of my 4060 and the fact that they pick up exactly what I'm hearing on the night. Your challenge, should you accept it, is to find the sweet spot (and anyway, if the sound isn't right on the night then heck, my mojo has already been ruined for the evening!)

i value the transparency of my 4022s and the fact that they pick up exactly what i'm hearing on the night

Okay, how about this then - I believe omnis give a more accurate representation of the sound hitting my ears, my rationale being my ears don't point forward at 110*

[shaggy]

I am gonna get scorched for this one but here goes. It IS a matter of personal taste....I really haven't heard many 402X shows that I want to listen to on a repeat basis.  Maybe I like bright mics, but they never have that lively sparkle and seem even more prone to the need to be in the sweet spot.  I think most far field work requires a bit of rise in the 5-8Khz range to make them have more presence....but this is just my amateur opinion, (in my best James Doohan voice) 'I am a scientist, not a audio engineer'.

That being said, the little informative webpage that dutchtaper has put up has really opened up my eyes to the MM sub $500 pair of card mics.  They still suffer a little of what the cheap stealth sets all suffer from (and it could very well be the MP3 compression), lask of zippy transient detail.

+T dutchtaper for your efforts and bold move to the MM cards.

[nickgregory]

I really haven't heard many 402X shows that I want to listen to on a repeat basis.

then you havent heard the right tapes

In all seriousness, the 4022s absolutley have to be run FOB, if someone is running them in a section the results are going to be extremely underwhelming, but up front, they absolutely shine...back to the theory that I know subscribe to that if my seats require me to have hypers, then I need to get better seats. 

[George]

Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

i find my rig (dpa cards) to have great clarity and a very realistic sound representation, both in th car and on home playback

You're right, cards are a lot more forgiving but I value the transparency of my 4060 and the fact that they pick up exactly what I'm hearing on the night. Your challenge, should you accept it, is to find the sweet spot (and anyway, if the sound isn't right on the night then heck, my mojo has already been ruined for the evening!)

i value the transparency of my 4022s and the fact that they pick up exactly what i'm hearing on the night

Did you happen to tape a def leppard show with those 4022's?  I remember seeing a show on my hd and it was your recording (i recall you saying something about it being really loud and the highs were a bit drowned out in the txt).

Anyway, that show sounded great, really woke me up to the dpa's which i'm seriously considering switching over to in the new year.   

[KingReptile]

Honestly, the 4061s don't pick up that much crowd noise unless you're standing next to someone whose talking, but that's when you move.  It's just a matter of taste, omnis rub some people the wrong way.  I can tell you that I'm not buying any more cards until I can get something on the upper rungs of the mic ladder.  Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

"Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings"....or that you need to listen on a crappy stereo for cards to sound good are two completely absurd stateements.  Omnis need perfect circumstances to not be too boomy sounding in my experience, whereas cards are alot more forgiving.  Hell I would put the 4022s up against any omni mic and the 4022s would win out in all but a very few circumstances, where the omnis may have every characteristic right to make a good tape.   And fwiw, my playback is not put together with nickels and dimes

Oh yeah  ...I am gonna have to load my Judas Priest up ..It will deflate many egos and well wishers 

[poorlyconditioned]

Honestly, the 4061s don't pick up that much crowd noise unless you're standing next to someone whose talking, but that's when you move.  It's just a matter of taste, omnis rub some people the wrong way.  I can tell you that I'm not buying any more cards until I can get something on the upper rungs of the mic ladder.  Most cardiod mics don't sound natural until you EQ the recordings, and then you're not accurately representing the sound of the mics anyway.  They do create a more pleasurable listen on crappy stereos, but a good omni tape has a live feel and pressence that you'll never achieve with any cards.  It's mostly a matter of personal taste so use what sounds good to your ears.  I preffer clarity and realistic sound representation over good car stereo playback.  Any rig has it's own distinct characteristics so buyers beware.

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

[KingReptile]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

[nickgregory]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

no worries, everyone has an opnion and hears things differently....I am not knocking the 4061 tapes at all, I am just rebuffing the belief that omnis beat cards and the cards need EQ'ing to be listenable...because my experience has been the opposite...and this is not as a section taper...but as you say I have heard some fantastic 4061 tapes...I think there are way too many other variables (venue, sound guy, crowd, location, levels being set right, band) some of which that we have no control over to draw real comparisons from...

[zowie]

And this is why any professional engineer keeps many different mics at his disposal.

[KingReptile]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

no worries, everyone has an opnion and hears things differently....I am not knocking the 4061 tapes at all, I am just rebuffing the belief that omnis beat cards and the cards need EQ'ing to be listenable...because my experience has been the opposite...and this is not as a section taper...but as you say I have heard some fantastic 4061 tapes...I think there are way too many other variables (venue, sound guy, crowd, location, levels being set right, band) some of which that we have no control over to draw real comparisons from...

Thats what makes us all unique ...

[Evil Taper]

You guys are right on.  The 4061s are a bit more dependant on the room than cards will ever be, but they do sound how the room sounded for that night.  I know I've made a couple of pretty nice stealths with the 4061s and a couple of not so great ones too.  If the room is boomy, guess what, so is your tape.  In particular there's a venue when the bass guitar just growls instead of sings and that's no good for taping with any mics, but at least I know I'm not gonna get clipping and shit like I got with my AT853s.  Sometimes it's a trade off in detail and clarity over a pleasurable sounding tape, but at least it's an accurate representation of the sound.  I'm not totally gung ho on my 4061 by any means either.  For stealthing they do a friggin nice job and can't be matched until you get to the high end mic selections.  Yet, I'm gonna invest in some sweet cards when I get the cash together, so there's a time and place for everything.

[scb]

This is in no way a shot at you Nick..I have heard some nice 4022 tapes the lowend can be incredible,..I havent made any boomy tapes with my setup but I sure have heard a few..Its all personal flavor i guess,I think the 4061's are a bit more detalied on the high end they really pick up the cymbals...

i've owned both , and i no longer own the 4061s, so that tells you what i like

[Von Recklinhausen]

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

[/quote]

I was looking for an owner of the Sennheiser MKE2. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the omnis AT943 (SP-CMC-8) and with the DPA 4061? I am considering strongly to buy some of the Sennheiser MKE2, so I would be very grateful  to know your oppinion about them.

[poorlyconditioned]

I agree with you the omnis sound most natural.  But sometimes you don't want that.  When I tape in crappy rooms I leave my headphones/monitors on with a mix of SBD + AUD.  It actually sounds better than what I hear from my seat.  And it is quieter too!  Sort of like an inverse hearing aid...

But, yes, for good sounding rooms, omnis sound great.  I have a few shows recorded with both cards (AT853, XY) and omnis (MKE2, HRTF).  I like the cards for listesting on my stereo speakers, and the omnis for listening in headphones.

  Richard

I was looking for an owner of the Sennheiser MKE2. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the omnis AT943 (SP-CMC-8) and with the DPA 4061? I am considering strongly to buy some of the Sennheiser MKE2, so I would be very grateful  to know your oppinion about them.
[/quote]

The Senn MKE2 sound fine, but I don't have AT943(O) or DPA4061 to compare with!  I'm sure DPA are the best, but I don't know how close they are.

By the way, make sure to get the 3-wire version of the MKE2.  Otherwise they may distort at high sound levels.

Really, unless you've got a killer deal on  the MKE2 (I got mine for $52USD each) you should just go for the DPA if you have money, or the AT943 if you don't.
Oh yeah, the AT943 have removeable caps, which is a *huge* advantage here.  Obviously some of us prefer cardioids, at least in some rooms!

  Richard