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Author Topic: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3  (Read 7741 times)

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Offline Myco

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recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« on: November 16, 2005, 01:58:08 PM »
Are there any negatives that anyone can mention in regards to recording @ 48 vs. 44 to a jb3? I remember back when I was using a DAT that everyone would make a big deal about recording at 48 and then dithering it down 44. The reasoning was that you'd have a better recording if you used the higher sample rate. I've noticed that most tapers now record at 44 to their jb3 rather than 48. Is there any reasoning for this other than not having to dither it down to 44 later? Just curious.
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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2005, 02:12:15 PM »
In my opinion, the only negative for recording at 48 instead of 44 is the time related to the additional step of the resampling.  For me, I would record at 48K to DAT because I saved my DAT masters.  My thought was that if I was going to keep a master, it has might as well use all of the fidelity available.  With a JB3, you don't have a secured master until you burn a CD/DVD.  The additional step of creating two copies (a 48K and a 44K copy) is something many will do not see any value in.  I create a DVD for each show that includes a untouched 48K copy, a resampled 44K copy, and a tracked 44K copy.  If in the future, I want to burn 48K data I will have a master to use.  Other may never end up using that 48K copy.
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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2005, 02:28:36 PM »
FYI, you don't "dither down" from one sample rate to another.  You convert the rate.  Dither is for reducing bit depth.

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2005, 02:40:07 PM »
i think this topic was brought up before, and i *think* it was tim that said "i'd rather have my v3 do my sampling for me than a computer program" - that seemed to make sense.

plus, i can't tell the difference and cutting that step out of my post work saves me about 5-10 minutes.


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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2005, 02:41:52 PM »
99% sure you won't hear a difference between the sampling rates, so it makes sense to save the time in post.
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Offline Myco

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2005, 03:17:56 PM »
FYI, you don't "dither down" from one sample rate to another.  You convert the rate.  Dither is for reducing bit depth.

You got me there, I stand corrected. My mind was in many places at once as I quickly wrote the post.
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Offline Myco

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2005, 03:20:44 PM »
Thank you all for your input, I guess it makes sense to save the time if you're not really gaining anything in the end.  ;D
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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2005, 03:40:27 PM »
In my opinion, the only negative for recording at 48 instead of 44 is the time related to the additional step of the resampling.  For me, I would record at 48K to DAT because I saved my DAT masters.  My thought was that if I was going to keep a master, it has might as well use all of the fidelity available.  With a JB3, you don't have a secured master until you burn a CD/DVD.  The additional step of creating two copies (a 48K and a 44K copy) is something many will do not see any value in.  I create a DVD for each show that includes a untouched 48K copy, a resampled 44K copy, and a tracked 44K copy.  If in the future, I want to burn 48K data I will have a master to use.  Other may never end up using that 48K copy.

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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2005, 03:47:45 PM »
FYI, you don't "dither down" from one sample rate to another.  You convert the rate.  Dither is for reducing bit depth.

You got me there, I stand corrected. My mind was in many places at once as I quickly wrote the post.

I don't really mean to get into this argument here, but, in practice, you'd want to apply dither after doing any editing on a computer.  Wavelab, for example, allows you to use 32 bit temp files.  so if I open up a 16/48 file, and resample to 16/44.1, the computer uses more decimal places, and it actually creates a 32 bit, 44.1khz.  you can then apply dither to get it down to 16 bit. (or, with WaveLab, you can set it up to do it all in one step).  I'm pretty sure this is better than using 16 bit temp files to begin with, because the dither can hide the small digital artifacts left over from the conversion process.

Another thing to consider, is that sooner or later, you'll probably want to burn DVD's to listen to your recordings.  I know for me, even with my 16 bit recordings from DATs, I like to burn DVD-Audio discs, because you can ge the whole show on one disc.  it's convenient.  depending on your DVD player, however, you may want to use audio-DVD-creater to create DVD-Video discs, because not all players can read DVD-Audio discs.  While the DVD-Audio format spec includes many possible sample rates (32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz), the DVD-Video spec only allows for 48 and 96kHz.  so if your "masters" are at 44.1kHz, and you want to burn a DVD at some point, you'll either have to use the DVD-Audio format, or resample from 44.1 to 48.

just some other things to think about...

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2005, 04:39:59 PM »
FYI, you don't "dither down" from one sample rate to another.  You convert the rate.  Dither is for reducing bit depth.

You got me there, I stand corrected. My mind was in many places at once as I quickly wrote the post.

I don't really mean to get into this argument here, but, in practice, you'd want to apply dither after doing any editing on a computer.  Wavelab, for example, allows you to use 32 bit temp files.  so if I open up a 16/48 file, and resample to 16/44.1, the computer uses more decimal places, and it actually creates a 32 bit, 44.1khz.  you can then apply dither to get it down to 16 bit. (or, with WaveLab, you can set it up to do it all in one step).  I'm pretty sure this is better than using 16 bit temp files to begin with, because the dither can hide the small digital artifacts left over from the conversion process.

Another thing to consider, is that sooner or later, you'll probably want to burn DVD's to listen to your recordings.  I know for me, even with my 16 bit recordings from DATs, I like to burn DVD-Audio discs, because you can ge the whole show on one disc.  it's convenient.  depending on your DVD player, however, you may want to use audio-DVD-creater to create DVD-Video discs, because not all players can read DVD-Audio discs.  While the DVD-Audio format spec includes many possible sample rates (32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz), the DVD-Video spec only allows for 48 and 96kHz.  so if your "masters" are at 44.1kHz, and you want to burn a DVD at some point, you'll either have to use the DVD-Audio format, or resample from 44.1 to 48.

just some other things to think about...

[hijack]
I've got a bunch of Dats that were recorded, and I transferred to my computer, at 48 khz.  What is the *best* way to resample these to 44 khz, and lose the least amount of fidelity?  If wavelab is the program to do it in, what are the steps if dithering after resample is the preferred method?  Also, where is the setting that allows me to make a 32/44 file when I resample, instead of a 16/44? 

It would be great if someone could write up a quick little tutorial on how to properly resample and get the highest quality result in wavelab. anyone willing?  It seems a lot of people would benefit from it, including myself.  :)
[/hijack]

Tim - I was just about to send you a PM, but I thought others might like to hear it as well, considering this is a 44.1 vs 48 thread, it's not that off topic :)

first off, let me say that I'm still at work, and I don't have WaveLab in front of me.  Somewhere in the general "options" or "preferences" there is a choice for "when opening files" and then there is a pull down list, and it lets you choose "16 bit temp files", "24 bit temp files" or "32 bit temp files"  it didn't take me that long to find initially, you can probably find it easily.  One thing to note is, if you've got a 3 hour 16 bit file that is already close to 2 gigs, you won't be able to take advantage of the additional bits for temp files.  WaveLab doesn't like files over 2 gigs, so if the temp file goes over 2 gigs as it's processing, it'll say that it can't complete the task.  So you might have to ues 24 bit temp files instead of 32 bit files.  if you're 16 bit file is over 2 hours, than even a 24 bit temp file would go over the 2 gig limit.  unfortunately, we have to live with this limit in Wavelab.

then you go to "edit sample rate" (offhand, I'm not sure exactly what phrase they use, could be "convert" sample rate, something along those lines.)

so, if you do this and you don't have any dither selected, it'll process the file, and then if you use the bit-meter, you'll see that it's now 24 bit, or 32 bit, or whatever.  you can then select the dither scheme you want to use (I always use uv22hr), and hit "render" to apply the dither and save the new file.

however, you can set the dither that you want to use before you convert the sample rate, and then it applies the dither automatically, after resampling the file.  so if you've got the dither selected, and then resample, and then play the file with the Bit Meter on, you'll see that it's at 16 bit.

lastly, a third way of doing this is to take your 48kHz file, choose which dither scheme you want to use, and then hit render.  you can choose to create a new file, and then you can choose the properties of the new file.  go in there, and where it says "sample rate", instead of leaving it as "same as original" you can change it to "44,100 Hz".  this method will also resample, and apply the dither scheme afterwards, and create a your new file.

I do not think there is any difference in the way that WaveLab performs the operations, regardless of how you do it.  so all three methods in wavelab should be equal to one another.

hopefully this explanation was clear, maybe someone else can verify what I wrote.  I probably won't be back tonight, because I'll be at the Trey show.  I'll check back in this thread tomorrow :)

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2005, 08:10:43 PM »
open a wav, go to 'options', then 'preferences', then 'file', I personally have mine set for 24-bit temp files to avoid the 2GB processing limit, YMMV

then once that is all done, right click the middle of the files, between the left/right tracks on the huge open screen, and go to 'process' and 'convert sample rat', then select 44.1k, and BAM, done, save end file and that set is done

the end files will be 16-bit, the temp files are just like a file that is processed in place, and dithered to 16-bit

so your end file isnt gonna be 24/32-bit unless you up-dither
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2005, 07:58:51 AM »
Bean -
perhaps you can be a little more clear.

Quote
then once that is all done, right click the middle of the files, between the left/right tracks on the huge open screen, and go to 'process' and 'convert sample rat', then select 44.1k, and BAM, done, save end file and that set is done

the end files will be 16-bit, the temp files are just like a file that is processed in place, and dithered to 16-bit
yes, the end files will be 16 bit, if you've already selected a dithering scheme.  if you don't select a dither first, then the file will be whatever you've got the temp setting at, and you can apply dither to bring it back to 16 bit.  either way should produce the same results.

Quote
so your end file isnt gonna be 24/32-bit unless you up-dither

what exactly do you mean by this?  there is no such thing as "up-dither", or "down-dither" for that matter.  dithering is not a process of changing the bit depth.  it is a process of adding a very small amount of noise to try and cover digital artifacts that result from computer processes.  the phrase that a lot of us use here (I'm sure that I'm guilty of this too) "dither down to 16 bit" it not really correct.  it should be "apply dither when converting to 16 bit"  anyway, it is my understanding that dither should be applied after doing any computer processes (but only once.  that is, if you want to do more editing/altering on your computer, set the temp bit resolution to 24 or 32 bit or whatever, and at the end of everything, then apply dither and convert it back to 16 bit).

I think, in actuality, we are describing the same process.  I just broke it out into the smallest steps, because that is how my mind works.  even though I do it all at once now to save time and because it's so easy, I like to understand what steps the computer is actually taking.  if you break it up so that the computer only does one thing at a time, it's easy to understand those steps.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2005, 10:33:07 PM »
i was using more generalities than anything, sorry
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Offline willndmb

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2005, 05:53:45 PM »
do you need a certain firmware for 48?
i have only been able to get 44, but i don't have the latest firmware either

if not--how can i get it set for 48?
thanks
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: recording @ 48 khz vs. 44 khz to a jb3
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2005, 05:57:10 PM »
do you need a certain firmware for 48?
i have only been able to get 44, but i don't have the latest firmware either

if not--how can i get it set for 48?
thanks

if youre recording digi in, then the jb3 locks onto whatever digi signal its being fed

make sure you dont start the jb3 untiul AFTER you have a signal going, otherwise its screws the jb3 up
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