Topic: MicroTrack 24/96 Beta 1.2.0

[John Kelly]

By posting to this forum my intention was not to get caught up in an arguement about the lack of 24 bit recording (except via digi-in)

Well, to be fair - and thanks to Boogie and others for highlighting this some time ago - I don't know of an external portable pre/ADC used by tapers that provides a full 24-bit digital stream, since that would require 144dB of dynamic range. 

Exactly. I first brought up the 144dB issue 3 or 4 pages back, and someone pointed out that even the $8000 Nagra V only has 96dB of dynamic range, so running analog into it is even more "pointless" than with the Microtrack.

It's not pointless to run analog in, it'd just be pointless to record it at 24bit.  Or rather, if you record at 24 bit, you'll have to run it like you would a 16 bit signal (i.e. getting as close to 0 as you can get), as running lower would bring the noise floor closer to the signal.

[Rick]

By posting to this forum my intention was not to get caught up in an arguement about the lack of 24 bit recording (except via digi-in)

Well, to be fair - and thanks to Boogie and others for highlighting this some time ago - I don't know of an external portable pre/ADC used by tapers that provides a full 24-bit digital stream, since that would require 144dB of dynamic range.  Commonly used taper gear, (A) = A-weighted:

123 dB (A)  | Mytek Stereo192 ADC
110 dB (A)  | V3
108 dB (A)  | M-Audio Firewire 410
105 dB      | Mini-Me
100 dB      | Fostex FR-2
 98 dB (A)  | M-Audio MicroTrack
 94 dB      | Marantz PMD-671
  ?         | Tascam HD-P2
unpublished | Edirol UA-5
unpublished | Edirol R-1
unpublished | Edirol R-4
unpublished | Tascam DV-RA1000

And koops - you'll get used to threads rambling swiftly off-topic if you hang around for a while. 

What about the 722/744? I think its 114 dB

[it-goes-to-eleven]

123 dB (A)  | Mytek Stereo192 ADC
114 dB (A)  | SD 722
110 dB (A)  | V3
108 dB (A)  | M-Audio Firewire 410
105 dB      | Mini-Me
100 dB      | Fostex FR-2
 98 dB (A)  | M-Audio MicroTrack
 94 dB      | Marantz PMD-671
  ?         | Tascam HD-P2
unpublished | Edirol UA-5
unpublished | Edirol R-1
unpublished | Edirol R-4
unpublished | Tascam DV-RA1000

Added the 722 to the above for completeness and fluffing..

Talk to Doug (and many others) and they will probably tell you that great specs don't necessarily reflect good audio quality.  In many cases, excessive negative feedback is used to reduce noise at the expense of good sound quality.

Case in point, there are quite a number of 722 owners who insist on fronting the 722 with a V2 or V3. However, even the V3 users seem to prefer using the 722's A/D. I expect that the "specs" on that combination aren't as good.

As far as measuring these devices ourselves, I imagine that doing these tests with no load on the input is incorrect. There should probably be a loading resistor to simulate a mic, etc (and probably another one to simulate 48v load).

While we assail the MT, it would be interesting to see the same data on the R-1 in 24 and 16 bit mode, etc.  For that matter, how about a 148>modsbm?  148>AD1000? Etc.

I'll still take noisy 24 bit over noisy 16 bit because there is more detail in the portion of interest.

[Nick Graham]

I'll still take noisy 24 bit over noisy 16 bit because there is more detail in the portion of interest.

Ditto.

Thanks for saying what I've been trying to. I'll continue to run 24 bit on the Microtrack, enjoy the DVD-As I make, and not worry about specs.

[zowie]

Isn't the question kind of academic?  If you've got good levels, what do you need the extra 15 db for anyway.  At least for PA recording.

Many of the very best recordings ever made like Living Stereos were done on electronics and tape machines that only had, at best, 80 db of dynamic range.  Your tapes should only sound half as good as those.

[Kyle]

By posting to this forum my intention was not to get caught up in an arguement about the lack of 24 bit recording (except via digi-in)

Well, to be fair - and thanks to Boogie and others for highlighting this some time ago - I don't know of an external portable pre/ADC used by tapers that provides a full 24-bit digital stream, since that would require 144dB of dynamic range.  Commonly used taper gear, (A) = A-weighted:

123 dB (A)  | Mytek Stereo192 ADC
110 dB (A)  | V3
108 dB (A)  | M-Audio Firewire 410
105 dB      | Mini-Me
100 dB      | Fostex FR-2
 98 dB (A)  | M-Audio MicroTrack
 94 dB      | Marantz PMD-671
  ?         | Tascam HD-P2
unpublished | Edirol UA-5
unpublished | Edirol R-1
unpublished | Edirol R-4
unpublished | Tascam DV-RA1000

And koops - you'll get used to threads rambling swiftly off-topic if you hang around for a while. 

add:

Benchmark 2402 (Sonic AD2K+) 117 (A)
Benchmark ADC1                      120 (A)

The stand-alone unit we all dream of just does not exist yet. If you want to at least approach the dynamic range offered by 24bit recording you must run an outboard preamp/adc (or get a 722/744t). I wish there was another option, because all of the SLAs I am carting around are getting heavy -  but until there is.....I want the one box solution with a Grace Pre and a Benchmark adc (with 144db of dynamic range ) but.....


someday - V4 anyone


edit: I just do not get this. The Marantz PMD671, for example, has a s/n of 94db. That is the same as my Sony PCM-R500. The Marantz is a 24bit recorder. I know that it is simply a reworked 16bit recorder but....wtf?

This bugs me - technology should be moving forward - the Marantz is a 'professional' device - they really need to get those numbers up - I am sure that it sounds great - I just do not think that is everything. Maybe I am expecting too much, or maybe I am missing something???

[SvenG]

I just bought the MT last week.

Should I install the most recent beta update to the firmware--or both (with the oldest first?).

I haven't been able to use it yet--every time I turn it on I get "Booting Firmware" and have to hold power and record down together to get it to shut off.

Frustrating...

[cpatch]

1.2.0 is a full install...you don't have to install the previous update.

The "Booting Firmware" message is exactly what you should get when you first turn on the unit. Give it 30 seconds or so and it should switch to the menus. If you don't get the menus after at least a minute then you have a defective unit and need to to exchange it. (If you can't get to the menus you can't upgrade the firmware.)

Craig

[jtessier]

SvenG:

If you are feeding the Microtrack power when booting, it will keep it from booting into full play / record mode. If you want to keep power applied, once it pauses just press the del button once to cause it to finish the boot. Also, the force power down key sequence is simply holding the powerbutton down for something like 10 or 12 seconds. You don't need to hold down the rec (or any other) button(s).

Good luck with your new toy.

John

[Ed.]

Last week I emailed M-Audio's tech support concerning the problem with microdrives and the time remaining...

From: Ed Buckel [mailto:ed@thefuzz.net]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:08 AM
To: techsupt@m-audio.com
Subject: Microtrack 24/96

 

Hello, first of all, I'd like to commend you for a great product and your continuing support for it.  I'm looking forward to more firmware updates that will make this device really preform.  I'm sure you're already aware about the 2gb issue and the 24/96 on the digi in.  I think once you guys get those issues squared away you're going to make a great product even better.

However, I'd like to point out something that you might not be aware of.  I've noticed an issue with the time remaining when recording via digi in onto a microdrive.  I guess the easiest way to explain the problem, is just to explain what I was doing when I noticed it.  I was recording via the s/pdif in at 24/44.1khz from a Grace Lunatec V3.  I'm using a Hitachi 6gb Microdrive for my recording.  When I start the device up and go to maximum record time available, it shows the proper time available.  When I'm recording it shows the proper time remaining from the 2gb cut time.  However, if I stop recording and start a new one, instead of restting the remaining time available, it continues to count down from the point where it stopped the previous time, instead of resetting the remaining time.  For instance, if I make a recording that takes up all but 20 minutes until I reach the 2gb cut time, when I stop the unit and go to start recording again, instead of refreshing the remaining time for another 2gb's it shows I only have 20 minutes left.  In order to get another 2gb's worth, I need to record a full 2gb's the first time through. (I hope that makes sense).  This can be incredibly difficult if the opening band plays for an hour and then the headliner plans to play a over an hour.  There's no way possible to work around the issue without losing a portion of the show from the time it takes to start another file recording.

Hopefully from that explanation you understand what I'm talking about.  From what I've heard, this only seems to be happening with the microdrives.  I think if the 2gb issue was fixed, where after 2gb's the device started recording another file seemlessly, the problem might not be so drastic.  I'd just have the show broken apart in pieces, but that could easily be fixed in post.  However, even with the 2gb fix, I think this might qualify as a big enough problem to look into, since I'm assuming it shouldn't be doing this.

Thanks again for a great product.  I look forward to using for years to come.

Ed Buckel

and then this is the reply I received today...

Hello, right now we are working on a firmware update that may address your issue. If you like, there is a beta version firmware revision available on our website, but it will not address all the issues that the full version addresses.

The firmware update for the MicroTrack can be found here:

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.drivers

You can also try the two different reset procedures available for the MicroTrack. First, hold down power and delete for a few seconds and the Microtrack should turn itself off. Then turn the Microtrack back on (whether it will boot up all the way or not) and hold power and menu down for a few seconds until it turns off the unit. Boot up Microtrack and it should work.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

JS

Email Support Specialist

After I saw this I was excited, thinking there was another beta firmware update, but nothing.  However, it looks like they're working on fixing the problems.

[sickrick43]

Hello, right now we are working on a firmware update that may address your issue. If you like, there is a beta version firmware revision available on our website, but it will not address all the issues that the full version addresses.

The firmware update for the MicroTrack can be found here:

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.drivers

You can also try the two different reset procedures available for the MicroTrack. First, hold down power and delete for a few seconds and the Microtrack should turn itself off. Then turn the Microtrack back on (whether it will boot up all the way or not) and hold power and menu down for a few seconds until it turns off the unit. Boot up Microtrack and it should work.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

JS

Email Support Specialist

After I saw this I was excited, thinking there was another beta firmware update, but nothing.  However, it looks like they're working on fixing the problems.

Interesting though - a HARD RESET procedure that's so-far, undocumented...  We learn something new about these things every day.  I'm taking mine out for the 3 show CodeTalker run this week.  It performed nearly flawlessly last weekend for 2 Brian Stoltz shows.  Currently running the 1.0.2 FW.

Rick

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Good letter, Ed.  That is an interesting new reboot/reset technique.

But otherwise, I think you received a completely generic response to your email.  The *MAY* fix part bothers me.

I think it is time that we engage M-audio for a more formal commitment to resolve the 2GB issue, the channel swap issue and the 24/96 digi issue.  I want to see them *commit* to those fixes, not say that they 'may' fix those issues. If any of those problems seem beyond the capability of the current hardware (and can't be fixed), they should say so.  At this point, it is completely reasonable to ask for estimates on the timeframe for those fixes.  Having purchased beta gear in good faith, it is completely reasonable to expect more than a form letter response at this point.

[Ed.]

i was just happy to hear that they're working on another firmware update.  up with hope and smoking dope!

[John Kelly]

But otherwise, I think you received a completely generic response to your email.  The *MAY* fix part bothers me.

It's called "covering their ass." 

I think it is time that we engage M-audio for a more formal commitment to resolve the 2GB issue, the channel swap issue and the 24/96 digi issue.  I want to see them *commit* to those fixes, not say that they 'may' fix those issues.

HA!

If any of those problems seem beyond the capability of the current hardware (and can't be fixed), they should say so.  At this point, it is completely reasonable to ask for estimates on the timeframe for those fixes. 

When have you EVER seen an electronics company give dates on when something will be fixed/released?  Why would you think M-Audio would be any different?  You can see that they are regularly releasing firmwares, why not just see what the next update brings us?  It's obvious that they know about the issues we're concerned with, why would pressing them further and trying to force them to commit to a timeframe help the cause at all?

Having purchased beta gear in good faith, it is completely reasonable to expect more than a form letter response at this point.

I dunno about you, but I didn't purchase a beta anything.  The only thing beta with this device is the newer firmware that you do not need to install.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I dunno about you, but I didn't purchase a beta anything.  The only thing beta with this device is the newer firmware that you do not need to install.

You're right - the original firmware was more like ALPHA quality, not beta.

The original firmware was garbage and I don't think anyone would dispute that it is the worst of the three versions available.