Topic: Blumein (MS) set up ???

[rowjimmytour]

What are tapers using to set up mics in Blumein (MS)? I have a idea using my AKG swivel bar but I would like some input from others to perfect it first. I was thinkin' simple!! SImple might be using one side of the mount for one mic and the other side I thread a rod (one end male other female 5/8") into the mount and the top (male side) into shock mount pointing down for MS. Thanks in advance for any input and I haven't made this rod yet because I haven't got my TL'S yet.
Peace

[TNJazz]

I ran blumlein last night with the AKG bar in fact.

I used one side of the bar and mounted a boom stand extension on the nut in the center.  With some careful tweaking I got it into place nicely.  The boom arm extension fits perfectly in the center.  You could probably also use it extending from the other side of the AKG bar, but I thought that due to weight issues it was more stable in the center, directly on the stand.

Good luck!
Dirk

[rowjimmytour]

+t for the pics and thanks for the idea. I was also wondering what kind of sitiuations ya ran Blumein(MS) in w/ good results and mabey not so good results?
Peace

[TNJazz]

Ideally, smaller events (not the big rock show, usually) where the musicians are fairly close together.  Blumlein's 45 degree angles can sometimes introduce phase issues when the soundstage exceeds the 45 degrees left and right.  A jazz environment lends itself nicely to the use of a blumlein array (trio, quartet, etc).  In some situations placing the mics directly in the center of the musicians yields amazing results.

It doesn't work particularly well from distance, due to the over-reverberation that can sometimes occur.  Just think about what you're picking up in a blumlein pair, and you'll understand why something recorded from "the section" probably won't do quite so well.  It's possible, but not recommended.

I ran it last night at a small club rock show, about 10 feet from the stage and about 10 feet up.  What I managed to capture sounded very nice to my ears.

It may be important to note here that BLUMLEIN and M/S are not the same thing.  M/S involves the use of a directional mic (cardioid is traditional, although omnis and sometimes even hypers can be used) as the MID, and a figure of 8 capsule as the side.  Blumlein, named after a technique devised by Alan D. Blumlein, involves two figure of 8 capsules mounted head to head (so as to occupy as close to the same space as possible) with one capsule angled 45 degrees left and one capsule angled 45 degrees right.  So your top mic stores information from the left front and right rear lobes of the pattern, and the bottom mic gets the right front and left rear lobes.

[eric.B]

allthough this is an xy pic, it is ideally the same for m/s and blumlein which i also run when on stage or if it sounds good..  the neumann mounts (altered a bit) work oso swell..  Ive only run blumlein at 90*, so I dont know about the 45* thing...   and as for m/s, I have only run it on the fly as opposed to post mixing..  both produce a soundstage unmatched by traditional configurations (xy, din, ortf etc)..  highly present center "image" with great depth and detail..   

[TNJazz]

Here is a blumlein sample from the show I recorded last night.  This is the unmodified wav file, with no other channels in the mix besides the two figure of 8 mics.

Dirk

http://s61.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0GKBHQVSICJGU1D275GA2J480J


EDIT:  just to clarify the above post, I meant two blumlein capsules 45 degrees off center - which means the capsules are 90 degrees apart from each other.   We are saying the same thing, just saying it differently!

[rowjimmytour]

Blumlein

Two bi-directional (figure 8's) microphones placed in the same point and angled 90°creating the stereo image. (By Thomas Kyhn)
The Blumlein stereo setup is a coincidence stereo technique, which uses two bi-directional (figure of eight) microphones in the same point and angled at 90° to each other. This stereo technique will normally give the best results when used at shorter distances to the sound source (way up close), as bi-directional microphones are using the pressure gradient transducer technology and therefore is under influence of the proximity effect. At larger distance, these microphones therefore will loose the low frequencies. The Blumlein stereo is purely producing intensity related stereo information. It has a higher channel separation than the X-Y stereo, but has the disadvantage, that sound sources located behind the stereo pair also will be picked up and even be reproduced with inverted phase.nick's notes: I would have to say that this is my favorite stereo recording technique. It topically requires some high-end microphones though (with selectable polar patterns or interchangeable capsules). When done correctly, nothing touches it (in my opinion). The figure of 8 microphone is a side firing mic. Pointed straight ahead, it captures two lobes of space on each side of the mic. What you do is cross the two figure of 8 patterns so you end up with 4 "lobes" being represented. Two in front (similar to an NOS recording) and two behind The setup should look like an "X" and not a "+". Imagine a four leaf clover, that is the polar pattern would look from microphones set up in blumlein positioning. It produces amazing stereo imagery and detail. This is also the hardest and most unforgiving method of stereo recording. Great care needs to be put into mic placement, alignment and above all, location!!

MS-stereo
One first order cardioid microphone and one bi-directional (figure of microphone in the same point and angled 90° creating a stereo image through a so called MS-matrix. (By Thomas Kahn) MS-Stereo uses a cardioid microphone capsule as center channel and a bi-directional microphone (figure-of-eight-microphone) at the same point, angled at 90° as the so-called surround channel. The MS-signal can not be monitored directly on a left-right system. The MS-matrix uses the phase cues between the center and the surround microphone to produce a left-right signal suitable for a normal stereo system. Due to the presence of the center microphone, this technique is well suited for stereo recordings where a good mono-compatibility is needed, and is extremely popular in broadcasting. This method requires post recording production, and is not commonly used in the field. It does sound very nice though.

[MarkE]

Here is a blumlein sample from the show I recorded last night.  This is the unmodified wav file, with no other channels in the mix besides the two figure of 8 mics.

http://s61.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0GKBHQVSICJGU1D275GA2J480J


EDIT:  just to clarify the above post, I meant two blumlein capsules 45 degrees off center - which means the capsules are 90 degrees apart from each other.   We are saying the same thing, just saying it differently!

Dirk,
  The recording sounds great... Which AKG are you using.. Im was going to try the Blumlein pattern next week. After hearing this, Im sure I will... Which AKGs are you using? And how far from the stage were you... Am I better off at the stage 10 feet? Is 20 ft. to far? Im new to the LD world and wanna do this right....
Mark E

[sygdwm]

i *think* he's using u89's.

[TNJazz]

i *think* he's using u89's.

That is correct.  This recording is U89i -> V3 -> Firebox (via S/PDIF)  @ 24/96

Big props to "Team Jackson, MS" for making it possible!   

Mark, the closer the better for figure 8 type recordings.  A couple of heavy hitters here in town (big time musician-producer-engineers)  have suggested I would get better results with a little bit of distance though, so I ran this particular show about 10 feet from the stage (maybe a little closer).  So far I'm pretty happy with it.

20 feet is not necessarily too far though.  It depends on the acoustics of the room.  Don't be afraid to experiment!  Good luck.

[Massive Dynamic]

... the closer the better for figure 8 type recordings.  A couple of heavy hitters here in town (big time musician-producer-engineers)  have suggested I would get better results with a little bit of distance though, so I ran this particular show about 10 feet from the stage (maybe a little closer).  So far I'm pretty happy with it.

20 feet is not necessarily too far though.  It depends on the acoustics of the room.  Don't be afraid to experiment!  Good luck.

Is Blumlein good for stages with standard L/R stacks? OK for outdoor venues or those with little reflected sounds? Would a stand be placed where the stacks were lined up with the 90° spread of the mics (about 35' from a stage with stacks 50' apart)? In this same scenario, could you place the stand even closer to the stage when using M/S?

[ianstone]

anyone have any ideas for mounting two fig 8 schoeps mk capsules to make a blumlein recording?

would a shure vert bar be good? can it be done using the schoeps vark bar and clips or do i need something more vertical?


ian

[RebelRebel]

anyone have any ideas for mounting two fig 8 schoeps mk capsules to make a blumlein recording?

would a shure vert bar be good? can it be done using the schoeps vark bar and clips or do i need something more vertical?


ian

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=56511.0

[JasonR]

For mounting Schoeps Blumlein, a Sabra ST-2 or ST-4 will do the trick easily.