Topic: loud concerts and a cheap mic

[petur]

This is probably considered a newbie question, and given the quality/price of my mic I hope I'm not wasting anybody's time.

I'm having troubles recording a very loud rock concert.

Equipment:
- iriver h340 (with rockbox)
- skytronic 173.623 modified to use a 9V battery
- the skytronic mic is T-shaped unlike the pics that show the skytronic

The concert was really very loud, and I'm wondering what limit I've bumped into.

I prepared a short unmodified WAV that shows that the levels are fine and there's no visible clipping.
http://users.telenet.be/petur/distorted.wav

I also noticed that when getting loud, the waveform becomes assymetric, any thoughts on this? I guess I'm hitting physical limits of the mic.

OK, so I probably bought a bad mic, any guides available for good alternatives?
- must be very small
- not expensive (<100 euro if possible)

thanks a lot!
Peter

[spyder9]

Hey Peter,

Welcome!   

You probably will need a small preamp to go between the mics and the Iriver.  I'm pretty sure that Iriver's internal amp can't handle heavy SPLs by itself.  A preamp will help immensely.  There are 2 places to go get inexpensive preamps.  www.soundprofessionals.com or Church Audio.  Chris Church is a member here at TS.com.

What's the specs on your mics?  Cards?  Omins?  SPLs?  Dynamic Range?  Sensitivity?

[petur]

thanks for the feedback!

Chris, am I right that the CA-T2 would be great for (loud) rock concerts?

I like the fact that it's all in one piece because I mostly try to leave my gear somewhere instead of wearing it on me (and have to stand still all the time).

What are shipping costs to Europe (Belgium to be exact) - or should I email you for that?

[petur]

My stereo T mic would work great but a preamp like my st-9000 this would be a good package for under $200

Ok, now convince a newbie he needs this gear

- I couldn't find any reference to the st-9000 on your site
- what will be the benefits? Better mic power? Better for loud music?

I want to use this with an iriver h340 which gives about 3.7V out.
If the preamp will help a lot I can maybe justify going over my budget, if the difference is only little....

[grider]

My stereo T mic would work great but a preamp like my st-9000 this would be a good package for under $200

Ok, now convince a newbie he needs this gear

- I couldn't find any reference to the st-9000 on your site
- what will be the benefits? Better mic power? Better for loud music?

I want to use this with an iriver h340 which gives about 3.7V out.
If the preamp will help a lot I can maybe justify going over my budget, if the difference is only little....

well, you can keep what you have and stay on budget and make acoutsically flawed/unlistentable/untradeable tapes that you will regret, or you can spend more, beyond your budget that are not flawed/listenable and perhaps even enjoyable/tradeable tapes that you will be proud of, should I go on?

[grider]

I hope your not talking about my mics and preamps

My stereo T mic would work great but a preamp like my st-9000 this would be a good package for under $200

Ok, now convince a newbie he needs this gear

- I couldn't find any reference to the st-9000 on your site
- what will be the benefits? Better mic power? Better for loud music?

I want to use this with an iriver h340 which gives about 3.7V out.
If the preamp will help a lot I can maybe justify going over my budget, if the difference is only little....

well, you can keep what you have and stay on budget and make acoutsically flawed/unlistentable/untradeable tapes that you will regret, or you can spend more, beyond your budget that are not flawed/listenable and perhaps even enjoyable/tradeable tapes that you will be proud of, should I go on?

no, talking about the merits of using any preamp as opposed to using no preamp at all, the benefits to using a preamp are too numerous to mention

[mmadd29]

I purchased one of the st-9000's from Chris.  It made a HUGE improvement in my recordings.  Prior I had low levels, which needed normalization.  The problem was it introduced some slight hiss.  After using the amp, no more normalization, no more hiss.  In fact, it showed me that I need to upgrade my Sony ECM-907 mic. 

I would highly recommend Chris' products, in fact Chris you will be getting an email about some mic's in the next couple weeks.  I think I know which ones I need, but want to talk spec's.

[TNJazz]

If the benefits are to "numerous" to mention then what exactly do you need me to explain?

Chris Church



"no, talking about the merits of using any preamp as opposed to using no preamp at all, the benefits to using a preamp are too numerous to mention" 

I don't believe grider is asking you to explain anything.  I believe he's stating the benefits of using a(ny) preamp are "too numerous to mention".  If anyone asked you to explain anything, it was someone else on this thread.

[petur]

Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

btw, thanks again for the service Chris, looking forward to use your gear...

[petur]

Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

mics have arrived

Only tried them briefly, and they do sound much better. A pitty the next concert is in 4 weeks.

[Microbe]

Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

mics have arrived

Only tried them briefly, and they do sound much better. A pitty the next concert is in 4 weeks.

Petur,

I'd be curious how you make out.  I have Chris's mics and running rockbox on an H120.  Using the preamp, I only set the gain on the Iriver to +4 max gain for Rock and +9 max gain for acoustic.  I'm sure you'll like the mics, I do!

JEFan

[Church-Audio]

Thanks for the Kind words I hope you make some great recordings with your new mics.

Chris Church

Well I'm sure I'll notice the difference myself as I've ordered mics+preamp.
Can't wait to try them out

mics have arrived

Only tried them briefly, and they do sound much better. A pitty the next concert is in 4 weeks.

Petur,

I'd be curious how you make out.  I have Chris's mics and running rockbox on an H120.  Using the preamp, I only set the gain on the Iriver to +4 max gain for Rock and +9 max gain for acoustic.  I'm sure you'll like the mics, I do!

JEFan

[petur]

Well the first gig I just recorded was a bit of a disappointment

The gig was pretty loud and I had the preamp switch set to -27dB,
AGC (safety mode) turned the gain down to -4db (YUCK!).
(This is on an iriver h340 with rockbox btw....)

Guess what: the drums and bass parts are distorted! Looking at the waveform I see no clipping but either the output of the preamp was too high or the mics/preamp can't handle the soundpressure.

So I don't know what to do... I was expecting *a lot* from this kit

to end with a positive note, the recording otherwise sounds quite good

edit: I've put a small part of it online (zipped wav) for your hearing (dis)pleasure: http://users.pandora.be/mieke-en-peter/distortion.zip

[Sanjay]

On your recorder were you running line in or mic in?  If you were running mic in then there could be some reason for the problems.  After listening to your recording, yes there is a little distortion, that could have been in the PA, your mic config, or some other factor.  However it sound very good none the less and its a very listenable tape.  If I were you i'd be more mad about the clapper next to you!  Try it again at another concert and see what happens, the distortion is not that bad in my opinion, and it just sounds muffled which could be for many reasons. 

Just a word of advice, there is no catch all.  My stealth rig cost me about $3,000 and I still get distortion at times, or a bad recording.  there is no perfect rig that you'll find which makes a perfect tape all the time, Mr. Church can't make one, DPA can't, Schoeps can't.  However what you bought from Chris will help you get much better recordings.

[Church-Audio]

Hi what preamp did you get the st-20 or the st-9000 preamp? let me know the st-20 does not have the headroom that the st-9000 has ( trade off for low price) but the st-9000 preamp should handle all the way to 0 db input level with no distortion what so ever.
if its the preamp I will take the old one back and sell you a new st-9000 at my cost + return shipping I do not want any unhappy customers. But like Sanjay said there is no such thing as a mic/preamp that does not distort. But that does not mean I will leave you high and dry if this gear is not doing what you need it too.

Chris Church

Well the first gig I just recorded was a bit of a disappointment

The gig was pretty loud and I had the preamp switch set to -27dB,
AGC (safety mode) turned the gain down to -4db (YUCK!).
(This is on an iriver h340 with rockbox btw....)

Guess what: the drums and bass parts are distorted! Looking at the waveform I see no clipping but either the output of the preamp was too high or the mics/preamp can't handle the soundpressure.

So I don't know what to do... I was expecting *a lot* from this kit

to end with a positive note, the recording otherwise sounds quite good

edit: I've put a small part of it online (zipped wav) for your hearing (dis)pleasure: http://users.pandora.be/mieke-en-peter/distortion.zip