Topic: Edirol R-09 release information

[phr]

Some thoughts:

1) I like the stand but 70 bucks for the case/stand combo is absurd.  It would have been great if they'd built the tripod socket directly into the unit.  Thanks for the suggestion of the Treo case.  Maybe I'll try to come up with my own tripod adapter if I buy an R09.

2) That's very good news about the battery runtime.  I don't think WAV should give less recording time than MP3 by any significant margin.  WAV doesn't take any significant CPU, it just digitizes the sound and copies the A/D output bits directly to the flash card.  It's MP3 encoding that's CPU intensive.  WAV writes a bigger file, and writing to the card takes some power, but that shouldn't be a large effect.

3) I'd be interested to see runtime measurements for playback.  Could the R09 double as a general purpose portable player (instead of an ipod)?

4) I'm pessimistic about the 4GB SD card situation.  That message from edirol about the directory structure doesn't make sense.  There's a 2GB limit on FAT16 filesystems but that's a FAT16 limitation, not an SD limitation.  It's solved by FAT32 (which has a 2GB limit per FILE).  There was a 2GB -hardware- limitation on SD cards til recently but the current standard goes up to 16GB, and Patriot has already announced 8GB cards.  (The coming SD/HC standard goes to 32GB and has some speed rating standards intended for use by SD video recorders--existing SD cards should be plenty fast enough for audio).  Many PDA's support 4GB cards so there's no good reason for Edirol not to unless they are hardware constrained.  "We haven't tested 4GB cards" sounds bogus to me--Edirol like anyone else is capable of getting a retail 4GB card and popping it in the unit, so if they haven't done that and said that it works, that means it doesn't work.  So, I think the 2GB limitation is a hardware limit that will NOT be fixed by a firmware update.

5) Re retaining settings and time/date info, the R09 improves on the R-1 but still messes it up IMO.  Any digicam or camcorder remembers settings and the current time across battery changes, maybe using a watch battery, so they should have done the same thing in the R09.  The PMD660 (in other regards an inferior unit) also remembers this info, though I'm not sure if it has a separate battery for that.

6) As mentioned elsewhere the absence of a digital input is unfortunate.  It would be great to use this with an external A/D converter.

I'd almost certainly buy an R09 in preference to my PMD660 if I didn't already have the PMD660, but as it is, maybe I'll wait for an updated version of the R09 before trading up.

[pgoelz]

3) I'd be interested to see runtime measurements for playback.  Could the R09 double as a general purpose portable player (instead of an ipod)?

I checked mine when I got it and found the playback current to be nearly identical to the record current at about 245 mA.  So your playback run time should equal your record run time. 

4) I'm pessimistic about the 4GB SD card situation.  That message from edirol about the directory structure doesn't make sense.  There's a 2GB limit on FAT16 filesystems but that's a FAT16 limitation, not an SD limitation.  It's solved by FAT32 (which has a 2GB limit per FILE).  There was a 2GB -hardware- limitation on SD cards til recently but the current standard goes up to 16GB, and Patriot has already announced 8GB cards.  (The coming SD/HC standard goes to 32GB and has some speed rating standards intended for use by SD video recorders--existing SD cards should be plenty fast enough for audio).  Many PDA's support 4GB cards so there's no good reason for Edirol not to unless they are hardware constrained.  "We haven't tested 4GB cards" sounds bogus to me--Edirol like anyone else is capable of getting a retail 4GB card and popping it in the unit, so if they haven't done that and said that it works, that means it doesn't work.  So, I think the 2GB limitation is a hardware limit that will NOT be fixed by a firmware update.

I sploke with Roland US about that and the answer seems to be that it works but they have not fully tested it.  It is one thing to pop in a card, see that it works, and another to thoroughly test it and certify that there are no problems.  I don't know the ins and outs of SD card formats so I can't comment on whether there could be snakes in the grass here. 

5) Re retaining settings and time/date info, the R09 improves on the R-1 but still messes it up IMO.  Any digicam or camcorder remembers settings and the current time across battery changes, maybe using a watch battery, so they should have done the same thing in the R09.  The PMD660 (in other regards an inferior unit) also remembers this info, though I'm not sure if it has a separate battery for that.

I have not had the opportunity to test mine yet (still actively playing with it) but it sounds like the clock runs on a capacitor that can become discharged after some number of days with the power off.  It is also possible that what they meant was that after a couple days with the batteries removed, the clock dies.  I did leave the batteries out for about 30 minutes and the clock remained accurate.  I'll have to test it powered off for a week or so..... if it ever comes to pass that I can leave it alone that long   But if I had to guess I would say that the clock probably runs on a capacitor that is only used when the batteries are removed. 

Paul

[sleepypedro]

4) I'm pessimistic about the 4GB SD card situation.  That message from edirol about the directory structure doesn't make sense.  There's a 2GB limit on FAT16 filesystems but that's a FAT16 limitation, not an SD limitation.  It's solved by FAT32 (which has a 2GB limit per FILE).  There was a 2GB -hardware- limitation on SD cards til recently but the current standard goes up to 16GB, and Patriot has already announced 8GB cards.  (The coming SD/HC standard goes to 32GB and has some speed rating standards intended for use by SD video recorders--existing SD cards should be plenty fast enough for audio).  Many PDA's support 4GB cards so there's no good reason for Edirol not to unless they are hardware constrained.  "We haven't tested 4GB cards" sounds bogus to me--Edirol like anyone else is capable of getting a retail 4GB card and popping it in the unit, so if they haven't done that and said that it works, that means it doesn't work.  So, I think the 2GB limitation is a hardware limit that will NOT be fixed by a firmware update.

"so if they haven't done that and said that it works, that means it doesn't work" -- that's quite a conclusion you're jumping to.  and it's also incorrect.  i'm using a 4gb card right now.  no issues.

[gngrbrdman13]

4) I'm pessimistic about the 4GB SD card situation.  That message from edirol about the directory structure doesn't make sense.  There's a 2GB limit on FAT16 filesystems but that's a FAT16 limitation, not an SD limitation.  It's solved by FAT32 (which has a 2GB limit per FILE).  There was a 2GB -hardware- limitation on SD cards til recently but the current standard goes up to 16GB, and Patriot has already announced 8GB cards.  (The coming SD/HC standard goes to 32GB and has some speed rating standards intended for use by SD video recorders--existing SD cards should be plenty fast enough for audio).  Many PDA's support 4GB cards so there's no good reason for Edirol not to unless they are hardware constrained.  "We haven't tested 4GB cards" sounds bogus to me--Edirol like anyone else is capable of getting a retail 4GB card and popping it in the unit, so if they haven't done that and said that it works, that means it doesn't work.  So, I think the 2GB limitation is a hardware limit that will NOT be fixed by a firmware update.

using a 4gb card right now.  no issues.

Woo Hoo!  Now tell us how it sounds!

[neutrino]

I did notice one thing:  it wouldn't format the card.  it just stayed in a loop, i let it run for 5 minutes before i pulled the plug.  turns out it didn't even touch the filesystem; the test sessions on the card were still present.  so.... i don't know what to say about that one.  obviously will test further...

So your saying the R-09 won't format the 4gb card but it will write to it. Are you then pulling the files off the card via a SD card reader or directly from the R-09?
dB-

[sleepypedro]

I did notice one thing:  it wouldn't format the card.  it just stayed in a loop, i let it run for 5 minutes before i pulled the plug.  turns out it didn't even touch the filesystem; the test sessions on the card were still present.  so.... i don't know what to say about that one.  obviously will test further...

So your saying the R-09 won't format the 4gb card but it will write to it. Are you then pulling the files off the card via a SD card reader or directly from the R-09?
dB-

yes -- will not format the card, but it does write to it, and recognizes the 3.86 gb fat32 partition written in windoze.  and yeah, i'm using a card reader.

i have connected to the PC with the r09, but transfers are faster via the card reader.

[udovdh]

How is the gain structure on the R09?
Audio performance?
SNR?
THD?
Graphs?

[pgoelz]

How is the gain structure on the R09?
Audio performance?
SNR?
THD?
Graphs?

I have not done actual measurements but from my listening and playing around.....

Compared to the R1, there is quite a bit more mic gain, the S/N ratio seems similar with internal mics, the recording sounds real clean, and the handling noise is lower.  I also noticed that the low frequency rumble in the room ambient is reduced with the R9 compared to the R1 under similar conditions.  Not sure why.... the low end does not look to be rolled off any.  In fact, the frequency response curve in the manual shows a slight rise as you go down in frequency. 

I will be taking it with me this weekend to a cello festival so I'll have lots of low frequency recordings come Monday   I'll report in. 

So far, no firmware glitches that I have noticed.  That said.... has anyone else noticed that it doesn't always say "Enjoy recording" when it boots up?  Sometimes it just identifies the R-09 model number. 

Paul

[neutrino]

FWIW - I've been running my R-9 with a cheap 2GB A Data SD card with no problems. The R-09 would not recognize the card initially, but after updating the R-09 firmware to 1.03 I had no problem formatting the card and running various tests up to the capacity of the card.

This is the card I tested...  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820211029

Also, for those adventurous types, the R-09 dismantles easily where you can see the two, extremely bright micro LED's which illuminate the rec button. I put a tiny piece of black electrical tape over each of the LED's to kill off about 95% of the light.
dB-

[sleepypedro]

has anyone else noticed that it doesn't always say "Enjoy recording" when it boots up?  Sometimes it just identifies the R-09 model number.

i haven't yet seen this message when booting up   

and FYI i'm doing a lot of short test recordings this afternoon.  i just started a recording session seconds after booting the unit up, and i got a 'SD CARD SLOW' message for a few seconds.  hadn't seen that one before -- except in its older brother, the r4.

does SD media require a few seconds to "warm up" prior to a session?  i wouldn't think so...

 

[sleepypedro]

i just started a recording session seconds after booting the unit up, and i got a 'SD CARD SLOW' message for a few seconds. 

this is reproducible.  fire up a recording session immediately after bootup, and i get 'SD CARD SLOW' after 0:03 seconds for ~5 seconds, then it writes fine.

i have not seen this 'SD CARD SLOW' problem during writes so far -- and for the r4 lovers in the audience, it's not related to vibration or deep bass either.  only occuring immediately after bootup.

anyone else see the same behaviour?  i'm on a transcend 4gb.

[pgoelz]

i haven't yet seen this message when booting up   

Look along the top right side of the animated graphic during boot.  It scrolls quickly and then is gone. 

Paul

[Ziggz]

I've just put batteries back in mine after leaving them out for a couple of days, and the time & date have held.

[hyperplane]

yes -- will not format the card, but it does write to it, and recognizes the 3.86 gb fat32 partition written in windoze.  and yeah, i'm using a card reader.

i have connected to the PC with the r09, but transfers are faster via the card reader.

+T, sleepypedro.

[udovdh]

How is the gain structure on the R09?
Audio performance?
SNR?
THD?
Graphs?

I have not done actual measurements but from my listening and playing around.....

Compared to the R1, there is quite a bit more mic gain, the S/N ratio seems similar with internal mics, the recording sounds real clean, and the handling noise is lower.  I also noticed that the low frequency rumble in the room ambient is reduced with the R9 compared to the R1 under similar conditions.  Not sure why.... the low end does not look to be rolled off any.  In fact, the frequency response curve in the manual shows a slight rise as you go down in frequency. 

Thanks for the info. Some real tests/graphs would be very welcome.
What is the max signal level that it can handle?