Berliner CM-33 mics?

[illconditioned]

"These Berliner mics are light years ahead of the Studio Projects C4."

Now that is a goofy staement.  I've tested the c4 against some wonderful mics, they hold their own.  From the samples I've listened too, these berliners are no akg480.    I've rarely heard a pair of mics that are "light years" better than anything.  I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't pick out a berliner recording if it were on the same stand as a pair of C4's.  I'd even be willing to bet that a cheap pair ok karma k10's would not be distinguishable.  This is esspecially true for pa concert recordings. 

I think we have another "discount mic of the month" on our hands here.  Its happened with c4's, pelusos and oktava's before that.  They are all a good value,but none if them are light years better than each other and none are going to replace akg or scheops.  There is no doubt that these chinese mics will depreciate like a used car over time. You will see the real mics hold their value.  This is a better indication of performance and value than any comment on taperssection.

Also (I think) Berliner mics are not that cheap.  If they could compete on price (or accessories, like multiple capsules, or even active capsules), then they would be interesting.  Otherwise, I'm just skeptical.

Oh yeah, about "discount mic of the month", I think Oktava (and perhaps Peluso) *may* be above the rest.  Oktava is an established company, and their product *could* be good, if the quality control was there.  Peluso is interesting because they "skin" their own capsules.  That may or may not be an improvement over Chinese mics, but at least they have something new to bring to the table.

  Richard

[goodcooker]

"These Berliner mics are light years ahead of the Studio Projects C4."

Now that is a goofy staement.  I've tested the c4 against some wonderful mics, they hold their own.  From the samples I've listened too, these berliners are no akg480.    I've rarely heard a pair of mics that are "light years" better than anything.  I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't pick out a berliner recording if it were on the same stand as a pair of C4's.  I'd even be willing to bet that a cheap pair ok karma k10's would not be distinguishable.  This is esspecially true for pa concert recordings. 

I think we have another "discount mic of the month" on our hands here.  Its happened with c4's, pelusos and oktava's before that.  They are all a good value,but none if them are light years better than each other and none are going to replace akg or scheops.  There is no doubt that these chinese mics will depreciate like a used car over time. You will see the real mics hold their value.  This is a better indication of performance and value than any comment on taperssection.

I've had a pair of C4s and used the Berliners as well. I don't think the C4s hold a candle to the Berliners. The Berliners have a high frequency bump that makes them sound great when used for distant PA recording. The C4s cardioids have a sloppy low end and muddled highs in comparison.

They are also less than half the price on the used market.

You don't think people would be able to tell the difference between a pair of C4s, Berliners and Karma K10s? Well, you're wrong...at least as far as I'm concerned.

[Javier Cinakowski]

You don't think people would be able to tell the difference between a pair of C4s, Berliners and Karma K10s? Well, you're wrong...at least as far as I'm concerned.

We will have to agree to disagree!   

The root of my point was that "light years apart" isn't a good descriptor of the differences between the aformentioned mics. 

[illconditioned]

You don't think people would be able to tell the difference between a pair of C4s, Berliners and Karma K10s? Well, you're wrong...at least as far as I'm concerned.

We will have to agree to disagree!   

The root of my point was that "light years apart" isn't a good descriptor of the differences between the aformentioned mics.

I just looked for information about these mics.  They are *very* similar to the Neumann KM184 in both appearance and in specifications.  Apparently they are made by 797 Audio in China, the same people who make Studio Projects and several other mics.

I do find it rather sleazy that they use the name Berliner, and also Neumann knockoff names, like U77 or whatever, while they are really USA designed China manufactured mics.  Oh, in case anyone complains about Behringer, well, that is a real person (from Germany).

These may be better than Studio Projects.  I like the smaller "form factor" too.  But for $550 or something a matched pair, I would rather pay the $800 and get Beyerdynamic, or pay less ($400?) and get a Studio Projects pair.  Just seems like a lot of money for an unknown/unproven mic.

Oh yeah, I was just reading the spec (http://mixonline.com/ms/aes2007/microphone-products/):
BERLINER CM33 STEREO MATCHED PAIR: The CM33 is an electret condenser   pressure gradient transducer with a cardioid  polar pattern. It features   a 16mm diameter 3-micron, gold-plated Mylar diaphragm. Electronics are   discrete FET with transformerless balanced output. Each package includes   two factory matched CM33s, mic clips, and windscreens in a wood   presentation case.   

Electret?  Can anyone confirm this?  Nothing wrong with Electret, but this would make it different than the usual 797 element.  The cool thing is that it could also be used as an *active capsule* as well.  Coolest of all would be if you could buy replacement capsules for the CM33 and run with your own FET/battery box.  Now *that* would be interesting...  If they really do sound great.

  Richard

[flipp]

Speaking of multiple capsules, their "Technical Brochure"  http://www.berlineraudio.com/pdf/berliner_cm33.pdf  lists omnis as an available accessory. I first noticed the omni mentioned a couple of years ago and sent an email to their contact address inquiring about a set. After a week and not getting a response I called. I don't recall who I talked to but it wasn't David Cohen and the gentleman on the phone recognized my name, apologized for not getting back with me and said they hadn't decided whether to offer the omni for sale seperately yet. He also asked how long I had had had my pair. Due to their age he said the omnis probably would not work with my bodies as there had been some internal changes fairly recently - one reason omnis were now an option. Whether this is true or just bs I don't know. Due to his reluctance to sell a set of omnis I didn't pursue the matter. Shortly thereafter I acquired some Beyers and they became my default mics. Now the Berliners get used in band rehearsals and don't get out anymore. Due to the revival of this thread and my finding a flac disc of WSP I recorded using the CM33s which listened to yesterday and being pleasantly surprised, I know I'll be taking these back out in the field again soon.

[EarlyMorningRain]

here's a pair for sale on ebay,with pictures, also advertised as new

No affl whatsoever

link

[illconditioned]

If anyone has these, could you take a real close up picture of the front - both grille and if you can see into the capsule at all.

I'm suspicious.  They look a whole lot like the Behringer C2, really cheap electret mics.  Now, they are likely not that, but I could tell from a look at the "business end".

Of course, if anyone is brave enough to open them up, that would be interesting too...

Thanks,
  Richard

[flipp]

I'll try to get some better (read in-focus) close-ups tomorrow. In the meantime, check 370 and 371 for some I posted years ago.
http://flipp.home.telepath.com/CM33/

Probably not gonna open them up anytime soon.

[illconditioned]

I'll try to get some better (read in-focus) close-ups tomorrow. In the meantime, check 370 and 371 for some I posted years ago.
http://flipp.home.telepath.com/CM33/

Probably not gonna open them up anytime soon.

Thanks for the quick response and photos.

OK, those look *exactly* like the Behringer C2.  Both front and back of capsule.  The only difference is the grille on the front.  The hole pattern in the capsule is the same.  Incredible!  Now, that said, therre could be a better capsule in these, but I'm really suspicious now.

I would certainly need to see more evidence of capsule quality before buying these.  The simplest test would be put these side-by-side (ie., taped together so both ends face exactly the same way) with a known mic (eg., Neumann KM184, AKG 461, etc).  Record something like ambient kitchen noises.  Then record a musical instrument of some kind, piano, or maybe a drum kit.  Give us a blind "taste test".

  Richard

[goodcooker]

Okay...I don't mean to be argumentative (alright, yes I do) but.....listen to the sample I already posted of these mics.

Screw your kitchen noises test and listen to the results of using them with a good preamp and garden variety mini recorder to record a show. That's what most people on this board are using mics for. Live concert recording.

Just because they "look" like another mic doesn't mean shit. The Busman mics and Peluso mics (as well as the Charter Oaks and others) all look the same on the outside and inside and perform quite differently.

I'm not trying to be some kind of hero for Berliner I just think you are dissing these mics based on comparisons to "known" mics (which cost twice as much used (AKG460) or 3 times (KM184)) that don't exist.I've taken them out into the field and used them. They sound great...why do you have to be such a skeptic without any proof? If you want to be a naysayer do your own tests before speculating.

You can't tell what a mic sounds like from looking into the "business end" any more than I can tell how a car drives from looking at the front bumper.

[acidjack]

I've got no skin in this game whatsoever, but in terms of a valid comparison, fine, the Berliners are much less expensive than AKG 480s.  But they are not much less expensive than, say, Beyerdynamic MC930s, which are about $650 used.  I would also call Beyers a "known" mic as well; they've been in use by longtime members here for quite a while. 

I also agree that just because the outer shell is the same, that doesn't mean terribly much, especially with multiple brands of mic made in the same factory that are built to different specs.  The iPhone and most of its competitor smartphones are, I believe, largely manufactured by Foxconn in Shenzhen.  Obviously the finish and quality on the iPhone and the better Droid phones is not the same as crappier smartphones that are probably made at the same site.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Screw your kitchen noises test and listen to the results of using them with a good preamp and garden variety mini recorder to record a show. That's what most people on this board are using mics for. Live concert recording.

PA concert recoding is so full of reverberation, external distortion, noise and a slew of other variables that making a critical evaluation of a microphone in that environment is almost impossible.  A sports car can't show its true colors on a old dirt road. 

The kitchen noises, or jangling car keys is fairly common technique to spot check a microphone.  It is difficult to compare anything at a concert and it is one of the reasons why I got into this argument at all.  Almost all of the sub $1000 microphone pairs are going to perform in a almost indistinguishable fashion in such a concert setting... However you might be able to hear a difference with the mics if recording some kitchen/key noises, or at a chamber orchestra, for example.  Transients and subtle harmonic interactions aren't going to be the same at a concert.

Yes, we record concerts and the Berliner might make fine concert recordings, but that doesn't make it "light years" better than any of the the other budget mics that have come to town the last 10 years. 

797 audio is capable of making world class microphones, but I think it is healthy to be skeptical of that, and it is also healthy to think that they could be "that" good.  I see both sides of this argument but i guess I am just sick of fan boys of a particular microphone.  I've been there myself too many times and I realize that most of it was wishful thinking.

[illconditioned]

OK, I listened to that UM concert.  Sound is fine, but I can't tell much more that that.

Where I could tell is a live recording in a small room, where there is a mixture of PA and acoustic instruments.  A really good setup is something with a drumkit, that is not mic'd, electric guitar, etc.

If anyone has such a recording using the Berliner's, please let me know.  Even better would be a comparison alongside a known quantity, such as Studio Projects, ADK, or some higher end gear.  Either way, that is going to tell us how good the Berliners are.

Oh yeah, they are selling for roughly $350 a pair on Ebay, but I'm curious why these are so hard to find.

  Richard

[hubbachild]

this thread has inspired me to get off my ass and have some fun last weekend. I own a set of Berliners CM33 along with Behringer C-2, C-4 and B-5. (I have a bad Ebay habit).
On Friday I did Popa Chubby at The Tralf and ran cm33's and Behringer c4's into stock R4.
Saturday was local jam band Aqueous at a small club with a showroom as big as your living room. I ran cm33 and b5's.
Sunday was at the Tralf again for Tea Leaf Green where I ran the cm33 and the c2's.
At all shows the mics were on the same stand, same position/angle, one set about 4" above the other. I was surprised at the results. I'd really like to put some samples up, but not sure how to do it. Do I just attach a flac file to a post? convert to mp3? upload to a different server and put a link? I'd like to do a blind taste test and reveal the sources after people listen.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give...

[NSL]

I've been using the Berliner Mics since November and they have been amazing.  I got them for fairly cheap as well as they were running a special when I bought them (I paid around 400 for the pair I think, maybe less).  The one thing that stands out the most for these mics is that they are not bass heavy as opposed to other mics.  Here is a comparison of the berliner and busman mics on the same stand -
http://www.archive.org/details/UM2010-11-10 (berliner)
http://www.archive.org/details/um2010-11-10.bsc1-k41.flac16 (busman)


Here are some of the recordings i've made with them-
http://www.archive.org/details/AP2011-02-25
http://www.archive.org/details/CCD2010-12-10
http://www.archive.org/details/TM2011-03-18
http://www.archive.org/details/jpdt2011-04-18.cm33.flac16

Here are the Umphrey's sets i've recorded with them-
http://www.archive.org/details/UM2011-02-17
http://www.archive.org/details/UM2011-02-19
http://www.archive.org/details/UM2011-05-19

Each of those Umphrey's shows has multiple sources.  I think they hold up very well